God's Laws
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28-03-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: God's Laws
(24-03-2016 11:37 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 08:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Because I parse infinite and eternal and know the difference between eternal punishment or infinite punishment?

Go and tell the difference. Why is eternal not infinite?

Hint: asking me back questions, is not an answer. An explanation is an answer. I am waiting.

(24-03-2016 08:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I recommend you not become a lawyer, judge or English instructor if you don't care to look at word meanings in-depth.

Thanks, but i prefer not to take advice about meaning of words or my future career from people who are demonstrably lying pieces of shit. Particularly about topics like slavery for example.

Eternal has infinity in it but re: time. Infinite is infinite in measure. Me pinching you gently with my thumb and forefinger for five minutes is less hurtful than stabbing with you with a knife for only one second; you have the former and latter mixed in your estimation of Hell.

Is Hell "awful"? Yes, it is. It's awful if you lose contact with everyone you love--indeed with everyone--forever.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-03-2016, 10:05 AM
RE: God's Laws
(24-03-2016 11:42 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
  • Why is eternal not infinite?
  • How do you know god is just.? On what basis do you judge god?
  • Do you think its moral to punish someone for someone elses crimes?
  • Why do you say gods commandmends are absolute, but condone killing of killers?
  • If you wouldnt go and rape and kill without gods commandmends, why do you need gods commandmends?
  • Why did you lie about slavery in the bible?

They are different dictionary words because one refers to time only.

God is just because He always act justly. He has treated me and others justly so I judge Him as just.

It is not in our moral codes inherently to punish someone for another's crime, however, I know you've seen this used as an object lesson before for the criminal--Billy talked back to the Sergeant so everyone EXCEPT Billy, drop and give me 20! This sort of thing sets Billy up to deal with his "stuff" or else, he'll have to deal with everyone else? With Jesus, we have everyone giving stuff to the Sarge so Jesus takes all their punishment--on a voluntarily basis.

Let me be more personal for a moment, if I may. When my parents divorced, I purposefully stepped in and was an agitator to take some punishments and keep sheltering my sister. Why did I do that, do you think?

Why do I condone killing murderers? At the government level, it is 100% a deterrent to them killing again, plus they have some time to get serious about God, and their sin. Do you think letting all murderers out of prison helps them repent? It does not.

I wouldn't rape or do a lot of things, even without God's commandments, because God is in my heart--I love God and my neighbor. The Law wasn't given to born again Christians, it was given to a world of people who lack self-control, and who don't have God in their heart.

I didn't lie about slavery in the Bible. We've discussed slavery in Tanakh--it is indentured servitude. Jewish people did not have Gentiles they whipped for not picking enough cotton. They had employees who worked their lands in exchange for food and shelter, in a sort of feudal system.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-03-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: God's Laws
(24-03-2016 12:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 08:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  When you say "badly written Bible" I think of atheist college professors I had in Religion who sad the Bible was astonishingly well written. Again, you have a childish excuse for childish behavior. "The Bible isn't clear enough to ME on first pass, so I pass!"

I'm not trying to arouse your ire, here, by the way. You have to be childlike to get into Heaven.

Don't worry nothing you say will make me angry, it's just curious to me if anything but the reason I say the Bible is badly written even if some parts are poetic and well-written is because it contradicts itself so often and there are far too many passages that are supposed to be a metaphor or an allegory but it's not obvious so it can be interpreted in many ways. For a book that is supposed to be the ultimate truth it seems to have a hard time deciding for itself what is true, hence the tens of thousands of different denominations that interpret it differently, sometimes wildly differently and they all think they got it right.

I've been told the story in Genesis of the infamous fruit eating incident was a metaphor but also told it happened exactly as told, the talking snake and everything really happened. Well which is it? You don't have to bother answering since there are plenty of believers who will disagree with you. I've read the Bible a few times and I understand it but I don't believe it to have any basis in truth, even if it adds some real touches like real places, wars, etc. the entire foundation of it is myth and folklore but if it was written to be a true document of history they missed the mark. It's far too convoluted to be understood as a simple retelling of what this God has done so far and his predictions for the future. Especially when so many of the most important portions like Exodus and the great flood have been proven historically inaccurate and never happened.

Since I gave the Bible a fair chance and read it a few times and even took notes and discussed them with church leaders I don't see how I dismissed it "on first pass", even Christians I've known have told me they struggle to understand it on a daily basis. Is that what I'm supposed to do, struggle with beliefs being shoved down my throat rather than use my own logic and reasoning to decide for myself if it's worth believing in? I'd rather make up my own mind.

At the risk of repeating myself, you have a childish attitude toward the willingness you have to do hard work for reward. We are talking about eternal life, and if I can be a skeptic and do the homework, you can, also. You "read the Bible a few times"? Really? You read all 66 books several times each? Really?

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28-03-2016, 10:09 AM
RE: God's Laws
(24-03-2016 01:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think these verses are disagreeing with you in part. Perhaps you will interpret them for us?

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
I will not interpret anything I will ask you 2 questions:
1)which part of this verse exactly is disagreeing with me?
2)where does it say here that New Covenant = absolutely new laws, no more any old laws?

A new agreement or testimony or contract or covenant replaces the old one. It's a new covenant, not a new codicil or addendum or footnote.

You had something strange earlier about the Decalogue of Moses being in the new covenant that is yet to come when Jeremiah writes of it about 1,000 years later.

The Law of Moses was written on scrolls and tablets, this new covenant is internal to the one who enters the covenant. It cannot be one and the same, logically speaking.

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28-03-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: God's Laws
(28-03-2016 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  At the risk of repeating myself, you have a childish attitude toward the willingness you have to do hard work for reward. We are talking about eternal life, and if I can be a skeptic and do the homework, you can, also.

You have a childish attitude about accepting beliefs without evidence.

What evidence do you have that verifies the bible?
Cite some scientific papers. Link to the websites. List your sources.

(28-03-2016 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You "read the Bible a few times"? Really? You read all 66 books several times each? Really?
Really? You're questioning another poster's honesty? You?
You've outright lied in this thread. Should I quote it?

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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28-03-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: God's Laws
(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God is just because He always act justly. He has treated me and others justly so I judge Him as just.

According to the words in your bible he is not just.
Dead first born in Egypt? Dead babies in the flood? Raped Amalekites?
We've been over this before.

(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Let me be more personal for a moment, if I may.
No. I have no way to verify anything from your personal life and given the things you've posted I cannot take your word for anything.

(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I wouldn't rape or do a lot of things, even without God's commandments, because God is in my heart--I love God and my neighbor.
God commanded Abraham to murder his son.
God, through Moses, ordered genocide and rape.
What would you do if you got those orders?

(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I didn't lie about slavery in the Bible. We've discussed slavery in Tanakh--it is indentured servitude. Jewish people did not have Gentiles they whipped for not picking enough cotton. They had employees who worked their lands in exchange for food and shelter, in a sort of feudal system.

Once again, you are lying.
Quote:Leviticus:
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

The words are there Q. Why do you try to lie about it when the words are there, in print? Indentured servitude was for Hebrew slaves. Gentiles were free game. Worse, there were loopholes to get the Hebrew slaves to indenture themselves permanently.

And if god could say "Thou shalt not kill" he could say "Thou shalt not own slaves."

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28-03-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: God's Laws
(28-03-2016 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  At the risk of repeating myself, you have a childish attitude toward the willingness you have to do hard work for reward. We are talking about eternal life, and if I can be a skeptic and do the homework, you can, also. You "read the Bible a few times"? Really? You read all 66 books several times each? Really?

You joined an atheist forum and go around stating nonsense that can't be backed up by any empirical data or evidence and I'm the childish one? First I would have to know without a doubt that eternal life is even possible, that somehow my "soul" or "spirit" is immortal, that this part of me will survive after my physical body dies then maybe I would have to consider every theory out there about what will happen to it including possible afterlife realms, reincarnation, or staying on Earth and hovering around like a ghost. You have still provided not one credible shred of proof why I should consider spending my eternal afterlife in the Heaven that is presided over by your immoral child sacrificing God who has a lot to say about how dirty and worthless I am because I was born a girl.

You have no clue how hard I've had to work in my life to achieve anything so you're assuming that I can't because I reject your religious beliefs? You don't think it's difficult to be in the minority in a society where most people actually think they get their morals from an old immoral book? That's already hard and I do expect to be rewarded for it, not by going to Heaven but simply living a good life free of dogma.

Yes I have read the Bible 3 time and I took notes and tried to inerpret it the best I could. The first time I was 12, than again at 18 and then again at 25. I've also re-read certain parts of it. I have read many books in my life, I like to read and I especially like mythology and folklore. Guess what your Bible is? It's myth, and people actually believe it like my parents so I want to understand it and since I reject it I want to know why I reject it so I can counter arguments by people like you who actually believe it's worth believing in.

Now explain to me in a way that an atheist could understand why The Bible needs to be considered a magical, spiritual text that actually deserves to be read as if it were the true divine word of a God?

Don't say it was so well-written because it isn't or that it has prophecies in it, I mean actual empirical data and proof. If you can't do that but continue to act like it can be used as a gateway into a magical world you can only get to after death where you can hang out with your dead loved ones forever than you are in fact the child here since I'm trying to treat you like an adult and all you can do is ignore my very pointed questions and just hurl insults.

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28-03-2016, 01:05 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2016 01:11 PM by Deesse23.)
RE: God's Laws
Are these your only skills in a discussion to?:
  • Not reply at all to the related topic
  • Try and completely change the topic
  • Say "yes" when its the honest answer to say "no" and then pretend it was a "no"
Your religion has thoroughly and completely eradicated any trace of honor and human dignity in you. I am just pointing it out for the audience and with the feeble hope that you may want to get back at least some of your digity.

So lets sum up what we got so far in this tedious attempt on your side to weasel out of anything that would unmask your dishonesty and moral bancrupty.

Eternal damnation:
Deesse23 Wrote:Why is eternal not infinite?
The Q Continuum Wrote:Eternal has infinity in it but re: time. Infinite is infinite in measure.
Case closed. You are too dishonest to admit you are wrong. Its plain and obvious for everyone to see.

Slavery:
See Fatbaldhobbits posts, with verses from the bible. You are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a liar

"Thou shalt not kill" (absolute commandmend by your god!)
You have confirmed now two times that killing by the government is ok for you and that this is allegedly stated in the bible.
This makes you a liar again, since there isnt much room for interpretation in "thou shalt not kill" (fucking period) and on top of that it makes you a sinner according to your own book that you so openly profess to follow.

The Q Continuum Wrote:Do you think letting all murderers out of prison helps them repent?
Dont try to strawman me you dishonest cunt. People much more clever than you have tried this shit. Go back and eat some more joghurt to get bigger and stronger before you may return and try me again.

Original sin:
Deesse23 Wrote:Do you think its moral to punish someone for someone elses crimes?
Did you "miss" that one? Nevermind, as we all know now, you would lie anyhow.

Obeying gods commandmends (again, see above):
Deesse23 Wrote:If you wouldnt go and rape and kill without gods commandmends, why do you need gods commandmends?
The Q Continuum Wrote:I wouldn't rape or do a lot of things, even without God's commandments, because God is in my heart
Another dishonest answer. You think contradicting yourself was actually a good move? I just asked "why do you need gods commandmends?" (which you claimed much earlier in this thread), and you answered "i dont". Facepalm

Moral standards:
Deesse23 Wrote:How do you know god is just.? On what basis do you judge god?
The Q Continuum Wrote:God is just because He always act justly. He has treated me and others justly so I judge Him as just.
I asked you, by what standard you judge him, remember? The fact that i rephrased my question from a few pages (and days) ago must have eluded you. Dont you ever keep track of what we discuss? Dont you even have a plan for all this evasion? Dont you care at all being caught in lies....all the time?
By the way: How do you dare to judge god!? Isnt he the all knowing all mighty...peace be upon him? Isnt he just, because he said so?

So apart from lying in general and lying about eternal damnation, lying about gods commandmend (killing), lying about slavery in the bible, judging god(!), strawmanning people what else are you guilty of, you bald-faced sinner.
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29-03-2016, 09:33 AM
RE: God's Laws
(28-03-2016 12:14 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  At the risk of repeating myself, you have a childish attitude toward the willingness you have to do hard work for reward. We are talking about eternal life, and if I can be a skeptic and do the homework, you can, also. You "read the Bible a few times"? Really? You read all 66 books several times each? Really?

You joined an atheist forum and go around stating nonsense that can't be backed up by any empirical data or evidence and I'm the childish one? First I would have to know without a doubt that eternal life is even possible, that somehow my "soul" or "spirit" is immortal, that this part of me will survive after my physical body dies then maybe I would have to consider every theory out there about what will happen to it including possible afterlife realms, reincarnation, or staying on Earth and hovering around like a ghost. You have still provided not one credible shred of proof why I should consider spending my eternal afterlife in the Heaven that is presided over by your immoral child sacrificing God who has a lot to say about how dirty and worthless I am because I was born a girl.

You have no clue how hard I've had to work in my life to achieve anything so you're assuming that I can't because I reject your religious beliefs? You don't think it's difficult to be in the minority in a society where most people actually think they get their morals from an old immoral book? That's already hard and I do expect to be rewarded for it, not by going to Heaven but simply living a good life free of dogma.

Yes I have read the Bible 3 time and I took notes and tried to inerpret it the best I could. The first time I was 12, than again at 18 and then again at 25. I've also re-read certain parts of it. I have read many books in my life, I like to read and I especially like mythology and folklore. Guess what your Bible is? It's myth, and people actually believe it like my parents so I want to understand it and since I reject it I want to know why I reject it so I can counter arguments by people like you who actually believe it's worth believing in.


Don't say it was so well-written because it isn't or that it has prophecies in it, I mean actual empirical data and proof. If you can't do that but continue to act like it can be used as a gateway into a magical world you can only get to after death where you can hang out with your dead loved ones forever than you are in fact the child here since I'm trying to treat you like an adult and all you can do is ignore my very pointed questions and just hurl insults.

I didn't ask if you've read parts of the Bible, I asked if you read the entire contents, three whole times.

It's not an insult to be honest to you. Yet again, you are explaining to me how it is that you require and demand somehow more proof than I or most believers have received--you have to somehow know 100% that eternity is real prior to trusting in Jesus, therefore prior to having your sins removed so that you can see eternity, comprehend it, approach it.
Now explain to me in a way that an atheist could understand why The Bible needs to be considered a magical, spiritual text that actually deserves to be read as if it were the true divine word of a God?

If you have read the whole Bible, how did you miss Jesus and the OT elevating women high above the culture around them:

* Moses upheld women's rights to inheritance

* Women judged Israel and led the whole country as strong monarchs and judges

* Moses and others said women will get credit above men, even for pervasive battle victories

* Jesus had close followers who were women, and appeared to women first and only following His resurrection--which fact made the traditional men they told doubt the veracity of their story

Quote:Now explain to me in a way that an atheist could understand why The Bible needs to be considered a magical, spiritual text that actually deserves to be read as if it were the true divine word of a God?

Because it can be shown to have predictive powers of prophecy.

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29-03-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: God's Laws
(28-03-2016 10:51 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God is just because He always act justly. He has treated me and others justly so I judge Him as just.

According to the words in your bible he is not just.
Dead first born in Egypt? Dead babies in the flood? Raped Amalekites?
We've been over this before.

(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Let me be more personal for a moment, if I may.
No. I have no way to verify anything from your personal life and given the things you've posted I cannot take your word for anything.

(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I wouldn't rape or do a lot of things, even without God's commandments, because God is in my heart--I love God and my neighbor.
God commanded Abraham to murder his son.
God, through Moses, ordered genocide and rape.
What would you do if you got those orders?

(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I didn't lie about slavery in the Bible. We've discussed slavery in Tanakh--it is indentured servitude. Jewish people did not have Gentiles they whipped for not picking enough cotton. They had employees who worked their lands in exchange for food and shelter, in a sort of feudal system.

Once again, you are lying.
Quote:Leviticus:
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

The words are there Q. Why do you try to lie about it when the words are there, in print? Indentured servitude was for Hebrew slaves. Gentiles were free game. Worse, there were loopholes to get the Hebrew slaves to indenture themselves permanently.

And if god could say "Thou shalt not kill" he could say "Thou shalt not own slaves."

If what you say is accurate, if I'm lying and you have interpreted the Bible accurately, why are you so angry? Why do mere ideas bother you so much? Do you know people living today who love the Bible with all their heart and use it for rape justification? Really? Calm down.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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