God's Laws
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29-03-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: God's Laws
(28-03-2016 01:05 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Are these your only skills in a discussion to?:
  • Not reply at all to the related topic
  • Try and completely change the topic
  • Say "yes" when its the honest answer to say "no" and then pretend it was a "no"
Your religion has thoroughly and completely eradicated any trace of honor and human dignity in you. I am just pointing it out for the audience and with the feeble hope that you may want to get back at least some of your digity.

So lets sum up what we got so far in this tedious attempt on your side to weasel out of anything that would unmask your dishonesty and moral bancrupty.

Eternal damnation:
Deesse23 Wrote:Why is eternal not infinite?
The Q Continuum Wrote:Eternal has infinity in it but re: time. Infinite is infinite in measure.
Case closed. You are too dishonest to admit you are wrong. Its plain and obvious for everyone to see.

Slavery:
See Fatbaldhobbits posts, with verses from the bible. You are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a liar

"Thou shalt not kill" (absolute commandmend by your god!)
You have confirmed now two times that killing by the government is ok for you and that this is allegedly stated in the bible.
This makes you a liar again, since there isnt much room for interpretation in "thou shalt not kill" (fucking period) and on top of that it makes you a sinner according to your own book that you so openly profess to follow.

The Q Continuum Wrote:Do you think letting all murderers out of prison helps them repent?
Dont try to strawman me you dishonest cunt. People much more clever than you have tried this shit. Go back and eat some more joghurt to get bigger and stronger before you may return and try me again.

Original sin:
Deesse23 Wrote:Do you think its moral to punish someone for someone elses crimes?
Did you "miss" that one? Nevermind, as we all know now, you would lie anyhow.

Obeying gods commandmends (again, see above):
Deesse23 Wrote:If you wouldnt go and rape and kill without gods commandmends, why do you need gods commandmends?
The Q Continuum Wrote:I wouldn't rape or do a lot of things, even without God's commandments, because God is in my heart
Another dishonest answer. You think contradicting yourself was actually a good move? I just asked "why do you need gods commandmends?" (which you claimed much earlier in this thread), and you answered "i dont". Facepalm

Moral standards:
Deesse23 Wrote:How do you know god is just.? On what basis do you judge god?
The Q Continuum Wrote:God is just because He always act justly. He has treated me and others justly so I judge Him as just.
I asked you, by what standard you judge him, remember? The fact that i rephrased my question from a few pages (and days) ago must have eluded you. Dont you ever keep track of what we discuss? Dont you even have a plan for all this evasion? Dont you care at all being caught in lies....all the time?
By the way: How do you dare to judge god!? Isnt he the all knowing all mighty...peace be upon him? Isnt he just, because he said so?

So apart from lying in general and lying about eternal damnation, lying about gods commandmend (killing), lying about slavery in the bible, judging god(!), strawmanning people what else are you guilty of, you bald-faced sinner.

If what you say is accurate, if I'm lying and you have interpreted the Bible accurately, why are you so angry? Why do mere ideas bother you so much? Do you know people living today who love the Bible with all their heart and use it for rape justification? Really? Calm down.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-03-2016, 10:32 AM
RE: God's Laws
(29-03-2016 09:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If what you say is accurate, if I'm lying and you have interpreted the Bible accurately, why are you so angry? Why do mere ideas bother you so much?
Do not mistake emphasis for anger. The colors and font size are used to prove a point not indicate emotion.

I did not "say" the passages. I quoted them. From the book.
What I quoted is accurate. If the passages I quoted are not accurate, PROVE IT. Show me what words were false.

There is no interpretation. If you have to interpret the word of your god, then the word of god is whatever the interpreter wants it to be.

The ideas of misogyny and rape do bother me. In my world view, men and women are of equal importance. That book says otherwise.

When you assert that the bible only details rules for indentured servitude, that is incorrect. I showed you the passages that detail taking and keeping slaves. You denied that repeatedly. You LIED.

I find it offensive when someone lies to me. It is even more offensive when someone lies in the face of obvious evidence. It is an insult to my intelligence.

(29-03-2016 09:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Do you know people living today who love the Bible with all their heart and use it for rape justification? Really? Calm down.
Is there anything unique to the bible that has any value in todays society?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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29-03-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: God's Laws
(29-03-2016 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If you have read the whole Bible, how did you miss Jesus and the OT elevating women high above the culture around them:

You have a funny definition of elevated:

Lot offering his virgin daughters to be gang-raped by the mob:
Quote:Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Selling you daughter into slavery:
Quote:Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

The "whoring" is always the woman's fault:
Quote:Exodus 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
Exodus 34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

Not only are women unclean after giving birth, they're more unclean (uncleaner?) if they give birth to a girl...
Quote:Leviticus
12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
12:4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
12:5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

Note that I'm skipping over the rape rules that we already mentioned.

And apparently, menstruation, designed by god himself, is somehow offensive:
Leviticus 15:19-29

The Law of Jealousies and the Bitter Waters
Numbers 5:11-31
Only applies if the man is jealous. The woman is shit out of luck.

Apparently Isaac was worth more than Jephthah's daughter:
Judges 11:29-39

Another man offers his daughter up to be gang-raped. Instead the mob picks the concubine and rapes her to death. She is then dismembered and... Just read it. It's fucked up.
Judges: 19:22-30

Polygamy: Too many verses to count.
Concubines: Too many to count.

God gets angry at David, so he has David's son rape David's wife (one of them anyway...) while everyone watches.
2 Samuel 12:11-12

Wow. Ammon David's son rapes his half sister and ten of his father's concubines.
2 Samuel 13:1-22
2 Samuel 16:21-22

That's enough of the old testament, I think. Maybe things got better in the new testament...

Quote:1 Peter
3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Quote:[b]1 Timothy[/b]
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Nope. Sorry ladies.

(29-03-2016 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Because it can be shown to have predictive powers of prophecy.
Quote some verses.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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29-03-2016, 12:05 PM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2016 12:16 PM by Deesse23.)
RE: God's Laws
(29-03-2016 09:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If what you say is accurate, if I'm lying and you have interpreted the Bible accurately, why are you so angry? Why do mere ideas bother you so much? Do you know people living today who love the Bible with all their heart and use it for rape justification? Really? Calm down.

There is no interpretation of "buying" other people, and having them as "posession" and to "inherit them to your children". Can you think of any context or interpretation?

You have decided to corrupt your mind to the point that you dont admit your dishonesty when it is presented to the whole world, clear and unmistakenly, no way to interpret. You know that, hence your short reply. You are running out of *weasel*.

I dont bother ideas. Ideas dont harm people. People harm people, physically and mentally. Mental abuse is an abuse! Ideas inform our actions, and i was serious when i told CotW that "im doing the work of god" were probably the last words of someone flying a plane into a skyscraper. I couldnt care less about what crazy stuff you believe, but when it has the potential to threaten human life (and human life is on the very top of my prio list, unlike your bowing down to the image of a imaginary being), i have no choice but to fight those ideas. I fight those ideas with words primarily. I try to educate people or help them educating themselves, because education is what made us rise from barbarism, the kind of barbarism that resulted in the bible.

In short: i am doing this for one, and only one reason: I dont want you to fly a plane into a building some day. But if you keep your way of (not) thinking, which is irrational in all possible ways, and if you keep being so grossly dishonest to yourself and to your fellow humans, nobody -not even yourself- can guarantee that you wont commit any random atrocity, just because you think
  • You were told to
  • And your source is absolutely authoritative

What you need to do (imho) if you want to get your human dignity back is to start and critically examine your belief(s). Im not going to tell you what to belief, i dont want to force anyting up on you (unlike the people and writings did who poisoned your mind and with which you kept poisoinig it), but i want to make sure that you -one day- wont fly a plane into my house, burn me on the stake, send armies into my homelands, rape or exterminate my people or make them second class citizens because they dont believe what you believe.

Once again, in all honesty: Arent you the least ashamed of yourself, jumping off the cliffs of a moral vallis marineris into unseen depths of dishonesty? Do you really feel you have to do this? You are so moral bancrupt that it makes almost no sense to talk with you, but rather about you. It takes ages to get any meaningful reply out of you, and then its mostly evasive and/or dishonest. Is that how you behave as well with other topics when you talk to your fellow humans around you (family for example). Are you the same disgusting, dishonest, despicable, evasive cunt you portray yourself here? Do you also treat your family and everybody else you love with such disdain? Are you even able to still love anything else than you abusive mind controlling imaginary tyrant?

How are you able to defend the undefensible? How can you accept the unacceptable? How can you sleep at night doing this? Do you have kids? How can you look them in the eye every day? How can you look every innocent bypasser, who is a non-believer and going to burn in hell but has never ever done anything wrong against you or your loved ones, in the eye?

You have asked me
The Q Continuum Wrote:Why do mere ideas bother you so much?
Well, as you see above, they dont really bother me, its rather what people make out of those ideas. And the only thing i do to fight them is to talk.

Lets have a look at your god in comparison to me, shall we?
If my ideas dont match his expectations he will torture me forever. Now tell me, who is more forgiving, just and tolerant, who is the better one, me or your god?


I dont want you to worship me, i want you to think about your gods morals. You have said he always treated you just etc. Is that just?
I bet, you are better than your god as well, just like me. You have made a terrible liar (and person in general) out of yourself, but at least you didnt commit genocide, condone slavery (thats why you have to lie about the bible, because it does), command rape, incest and other atrocities...yet

Why are you justifiying those horrible deeds. Stand up and admit you are better than your god, way better.

P.S.:
The Q Continuum Wrote:Do you know people living today who love the Bible with all their heart and use it for rape justification?
Seriously, are we now down to "come on, its not that bad, not anymore? I think we just have hit the rock bottom of your mariana trench of apologetics.
Answer: Priests? At least some of them indeed try to justify their behaviour, and quite a few are acting extremely suspicious when they are caught, and mostly try to avoid being caught and go on with their immoral behaviour. Rings a lot of bells in my mind. The "i can do what ever i want if i repent...in the end" bells.
But that doesnt matter actually. What matters is: Do you think that god exists and the bible is his word? Remember slavery before you answer again!

While we are at rape and slavery:
Another possible answer to your question is: ISIS
Their Quran advocates slavery and describes in detail "how to". You know what they are doing? They keep females as sex slaves for regular rape, and give them contraception, because -according to the Quran- raping heathens is ok, procreating with them is not. I wont go in the disgusting details of these rules, but according to scripture experts, its all according to the Quran.

I dont want you to be like ISIS some day, just because someone re-interpreted...well, no interpretation needed. It is there, word for word.

And now tell me again that this can not happen again, tell me you wont do it and why.
Because so far i have seen nothing written by you that would convince me. You lie if necessary, are completely irrational, and are interpreting bible passages to the point that you tell us the exact opposite of what what originally written. Your way of (not critically) thinking is what will not prevent you from doing any of this.
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29-03-2016, 12:20 PM
RE: God's Laws
(29-03-2016 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I didn't ask if you've read parts of the Bible, I asked if you read the entire contents, three whole times.

It's not an insult to be honest to you. Yet again, you are explaining to me how it is that you require and demand somehow more proof than I or most believers have received--you have to somehow know 100% that eternity is real prior to trusting in Jesus, therefore prior to having your sins removed so that you can see eternity, comprehend it, approach it.
Now explain to me in a way that an atheist could understand why The Bible needs to be considered a magical, spiritual text that actually deserves to be read as if it were the true divine word of a God?

If you have read the whole Bible, how did you miss Jesus and the OT elevating women high above the culture around them:

* Moses upheld women's rights to inheritance

* Women judged Israel and led the whole country as strong monarchs and judges

* Moses and others said women will get credit above men, even for pervasive battle victories

* Jesus had close followers who were women, and appeared to women first and only following His resurrection--which fact made the traditional men they told doubt the veracity of their story

Because it can be shown to have predictive powers of prophecy.

I said I read the bible 3 times, yes that means the ENTIRE book 3 whole times and I took notes, researched and investigated certain passages to be sure I could interpret it correctly because like I said before it's so terribly written it's hard to know when it actually wants you to believe some magical happening actually occurred or if it's just an allegory. Just because I read the same book as you and came away with a different response to it doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right, just get over it. A lot of atheists have read the Bible, most atheists I've spoken to have a better understanding of it than every Christian I know. How do you explain ex-Christians who were preachers, ministers, etc. and are now atheists? Do you doubt their understanding of the book as well?

You say there are many parts of the Bible that are respectful towards women? Wow, that's wonderful, I can point out many parts that are outright disrespectful of them and treat them as nothing more than property or "virgins to do with as you please." The introduction of a woman in the book of Genesis alone makes women look bad, oh let's create a help mate for Adam, then she eat's the forbidden fruit and we're all damned now, people have been using that as an excuse to treat women terribly for thousands of years. Since you've read the Bible I'm sure you're fully aware of all of those verses, right? Or do you conveniently pretend they don't exist? Like all the scripture on slavery?

Here is a link to some verses of the Bible that are negative towards women:
Misogynist Bible Verses

You say the Bible has predictive powers of prophecy and that is the ONLY reason why anyone should have faith in it and believe it's the divine word of a God? Seriously? That's it? Ok name one prophecy from the Bible that has come true and wasn't vague or generalized like "a war will come to pass", something very specific and detailed that occurred way after the Bible was written. There are historical scholars who not only dismiss the predictive powers of the Bible but don't even believe it was meant to be prophetic in the first place:

The Truth Behind Biblical Prophecies

Failed Bible Prophecies

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29-03-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: God's Laws
(28-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God is just because He always act justly. He has treated me and others justly so I judge Him as just. [...]

I'd be interested in you interpretation of the following facts in light of your claim that your omnipotent god always acts justly:

In 2015, it was estimated that 5.9 million children under age five died in 2015, or 16,000 every day in sub-Saharan Africa. [Global Health Observatory (GHO) Data 2015 ]

From this I can only draw the conclusion that your putative god is not all-powerful; is in fact callous; is sadistic; is unjust; is capricious; is unintelligent; or more than likely a purely imaginary, mythical figure.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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30-03-2016, 12:34 AM
RE: God's Laws
(29-03-2016 12:05 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I dont bother ideas. Ideas dont harm people.

Ideas may not harm people directly but some of them are leading causes of suffering and death. Look at Bolsheviks idea of building communism or nazi idea of racial superiority and later that there is something like Jewish question which need resolution.

Ideas are among most dangerous weapon created by mankind as they give justification and absolve of blame. It's doing something for the good of all or own race that brought biggest suffering. No petty criminal can compare with those who were trying to make their idea true.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-03-2016, 01:17 AM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 12:34 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 12:05 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I dont bother ideas. Ideas dont harm people.

Ideas may not harm people directly but some of them are leading causes of suffering and death. Look at Bolsheviks idea of building communism or nazi idea of racial superiority and later that there is something like Jewish question which need resolution.

Ideas are among most dangerous weapon created by mankind as they give justification and absolve of blame. It's doing something for the good of all or own race that brought biggest suffering. No petty criminal can compare with those who were trying to make their idea true.

You are right, I wanted to rephrase this. But i didnt want to make major edits long after posting.

I was primarily referring to my understanding of his post, that mere ideas (without action) do no harm. I was trying to lead him back from the actions that are informed by our ideas/beliefs to the beliefs themselves as you can see later in my post.

With pepole like Q you have to start somewhere if you want to really get access to their inner workings. His statement about ideas lead me to believe its important to him to believe what he wants to believe. So i wanted to make clear that i am not interested at all to take his right to believe. I was just trying to avoid him thinking that i am attacking his right to believe, but rahter attack his
  • way to get to his beliefs
  • and his specific belief based on the bible , which is immoral as proven

Asking someone to start critical thinking can be misunderstood that your goal is to take away their right to believe, i wanted to avoid this.
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30-03-2016, 01:36 AM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 01:17 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  You are right, I wanted to rephrase this. But i didnt want to make major edits long after posting.

I was primarily referring to my understanding of his post, that mere ideas (without action) do no harm. I was trying to lead him back from the actions that are informed by our ideas/beliefs to the beliefs themselves as you can see later in my post.

With pepole like Q you have to start somewhere if you want to really get access to their inner workings. His statement about ideas lead me to believe its important to him to believe what he wants to believe. So i wanted to make clear that i am not interested at all to take his right to believe. I was just trying to avoid him thinking that i am attacking his right to believe, but rahter attack his
  • way to get to his beliefs
  • and his specific belief based on the bible , which is immoral as proven

Asking someone to start critical thinking can be misunderstood that your goal is to take away their right to believe, i wanted to avoid this.

I understand. But I weren't really interested in Q parts of your post as I don't think that discussion with such believer as Q is something worth having. It was only part about ideas that caught my interest so I responded to it.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-03-2016, 09:06 AM
RE: God's Laws
All,

I've been presented with the troubling verses and passages shared by you before. Please be aware, that even if you find me offensive, many millions of sincere believers, some of them theologians, some of them degreed scholars, have looked at the issues, in depth, in context, in the original languages, in prayer, and have concluded differently than you.

For the sake of my time and also for yours, to prevent me from getting more frustrated and also to prevent you from being more frustrated, may I gently suggest that if we come to an agreement that the Bible is pro-woman and anti-slavery, that I don't perceive the real issues will be solved? To be honest--and the Bible agrees with my anecdotal experience here--people never turn from God for strictly theological reasons, but for personal reasons. I have many stories--and the Bible agrees with my slant here--of people who left the church upset about Hell, slavery, whatever--and within days were known to have changed their moral patterns significantly. Upset about Hell, then divorcing their spouse and hurting their children. Saying the Bible is a white man's misogynist book, and then fornicating with casual acquaintances and so on.

Now, I also recognize that many of you did not slide down that fast. Some of you agonized a long time before leaving the church and changing your lifestyle as a result. We have someone here who read the Bible multiple times, even took notes.

But if I'm going to get into it and type multiple thousands of words in responses to explain slavery--and go back and forth five more times to get the other person aligned--I'll do it with people open to Jesus Christ. Sorry.

I've already posted thousands of words here on each of these subjects. If you really want to know--talk to God about these things. I have! He answers!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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