God's Laws
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30-03-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I've been presented with the troubling verses and passages shared by you before. Please be aware, that even if you find me offensive, many millions of sincere believers, some of them theologians, some of them degreed scholars, have looked at the issues, in depth, in context, in the original languages, in prayer, and have concluded differently than you.

For the sake of my time and also for yours, to prevent me from getting more frustrated and also to prevent you from being more frustrated, may I gently suggest that if we come to an agreement that the Bible is pro-woman and anti-slavery, that I don't perceive the real issues will be solved? To be honest--and the Bible agrees with my anecdotal experience here--people never turn from God for strictly theological reasons, but for personal reasons. I have many stories--and the Bible agrees with my slant here--of people who left the church upset about Hell, slavery, whatever--and within days were known to have changed their moral patterns significantly. Upset about Hell, then divorcing their spouse and hurting their children. Saying the Bible is a white man's misogynist book, and then fornicating with casual acquaintances and so on.

Now, I also recognize that many of you did not slide down that fast. Some of you agonized a long time before leaving the church and changing your lifestyle as a result. We have someone here who read the Bible multiple times, even took notes.

But if I'm going to get into it and type multiple thousands of words in responses to explain slavery--and go back and forth five more times to get the other person aligned--I'll do it with people open to Jesus Christ. Sorry.

I've already posted thousands of words here on each of these subjects. If you really want to know--talk to God about these things. I have! He answers!

My "lifestyle" is essentially the same as it was when I was a practicing Catholic. The only major difference is that I have an hour or two more free time on Sunday. Furthermore, most Catholics and other Christians that I know have a lifestyle that is indistinguishable from that of most atheists, except for the time they spend in church on Sunday.

The whole "lifestyle" argument is a red herring. I didn't become an atheist so that I could "sin without guilt". I became an atheist because religion didn't make any sense. Stop insulting me (and all of us) by insinuating otherwise.
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30-03-2016, 09:36 AM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,
I've been presented with the troubling verses and passages shared by you before. Please be aware, that even if you find me offensive, many millions of sincere believers, some of them theologians, some of them degreed scholars, have looked at the issues, in depth, in context, in the original languages, in prayer, and have concluded differently than you.

You havent read my last post at all, have you? So i gotta torture your dishonest a$$ a little bit more.

Dont blame me. You asked for it. From pretending to be oh so morally superior to "oh its not so bad, not anymore" to "others say the same stupid and dishonest stuff" like me!? How low are you willing to go for your delusion?

I dont give a fuck if they are sincere believers, i dont give a fuck if and to whom they pray, i dont give a fuck of how many they are. I do give a fuck about whats true (= is consistent with reality). And i would prefer if you think for yourself and dont tell how others have thought (and prayed, and considered and translated and concluded) for you. It makes you look intellectually lazy, you know.

You dont need to post thousands of words to obfuscate. Imagine i am a poor stupid non-believer, wrap it up in a few lines. Just tell me what else the bold parts mean than what is actually written. What different context makes owning another human being as property moral and what different interpretation is there for "buy" and "inheritance", "posession" etc.

Quote:5:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

The Q Continuum Wrote:To be honest--and the Bible agrees with my anecdotal experience here--people never turn from God for strictly theological reasons, but for personal reasons

Dont you think your attacks on my character will stick for a second, im like the teflon-don, you dishonest, condescending motherfucker.
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30-03-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've already posted thousands of words here on each of these subjects. If you really want to know--talk to God about these things. I have! He answers!

You are a pathetic, lying, hypocrite. If your god existed, you would be an excellent representative for it.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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30-03-2016, 11:23 AM (This post was last modified: 30-03-2016 12:17 PM by mgoering.)
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I've been presented with the troubling verses and passages shared by you before. Please be aware, that even if you find me offensive, many millions of sincere believers, some of them theologians, some of them degreed scholars, have looked at the issues, in depth, in context, in the original languages, in prayer, and have concluded differently than you.

For the sake of my time and also for yours, to prevent me from getting more frustrated and also to prevent you from being more frustrated, may I gently suggest that if we come to an agreement that the Bible is pro-woman and anti-slavery, that I don't perceive the real issues will be solved? To be honest--and the Bible agrees with my anecdotal experience here--people never turn from God for strictly theological reasons, but for personal reasons. I have many stories--and the Bible agrees with my slant here--of people who left the church upset about Hell, slavery, whatever--and within days were known to have changed their moral patterns significantly. Upset about Hell, then divorcing their spouse and hurting their children. Saying the Bible is a white man's misogynist book, and then fornicating with casual acquaintances and so on.

Now, I also recognize that many of you did not slide down that fast. Some of you agonized a long time before leaving the church and changing your lifestyle as a result. We have someone here who read the Bible multiple times, even took notes.

But if I'm going to get into it and type multiple thousands of words in responses to explain slavery--and go back and forth five more times to get the other person aligned--I'll do it with people open to Jesus Christ. Sorry.

I've already posted thousands of words here on each of these subjects. If you really want to know--talk to God about these things. I have! He answers!

You sound defeated. There, there. It's hard to try to convince someone who has seen the light to retreat back into magical thinking. Just try convincing your children that, contrary to what they may have heard, Santa Claus and the Easter bunny really do exist. Your success rate would be zero, just as it has been here.

Yes, go explain to people who are "open to Jesus Christ" that the Bible is not misogynistic nor condones slavery and they'll probably look at you funny. Huh That's because most of them have no idea what is in the Bible. But, be careful. They may actually read it, out of curiosity, and get enlightened too.

Oh, and BTW, I doubt that, when they do see the light, they will use it as an excuse to divorce their spouses, hurt their children and fornicate with casual acquaintances as you suggest. You have a really twisted opinion about people who don't believe exactly as you do.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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30-03-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I've been presented with the troubling verses and passages shared by you before. Please be aware, that even if you find me offensive, many millions of sincere believers, some of them theologians, some of them degreed scholars, have looked at the issues, in depth, in context, in the original languages, in prayer, and have concluded differently than you.

For the sake of my time and also for yours, to prevent me from getting more frustrated and also to prevent you from being more frustrated, may I gently suggest that if we come to an agreement that the Bible is pro-woman and anti-slavery, that I don't perceive the real issues will be solved? To be honest--and the Bible agrees with my anecdotal experience here--people never turn from God for strictly theological reasons, but for personal reasons. I have many stories--and the Bible agrees with my slant here--of people who left the church upset about Hell, slavery, whatever--and within days were known to have changed their moral patterns significantly. Upset about Hell, then divorcing their spouse and hurting their children. Saying the Bible is a white man's misogynist book, and then fornicating with casual acquaintances and so on.

Now, I also recognize that many of you did not slide down that fast. Some of you agonized a long time before leaving the church and changing your lifestyle as a result. We have someone here who read the Bible multiple times, even took notes.

But if I'm going to get into it and type multiple thousands of words in responses to explain slavery--and go back and forth five more times to get the other person aligned--I'll do it with people open to Jesus Christ. Sorry.

I've already posted thousands of words here on each of these subjects. If you really want to know--talk to God about these things. I have! He answers!

You will accept the sincere findings of someone who believes in God about the Bible after they had to pray about it for a long time but when someone who doesn't believe reads it and studies it and is also very sincere but comes away feeling it's an old book of immoral nonsense that's no good to you? Ok fine, you clearly suffer from confirmation bias. I also don't see anything in your response that proves the Bible has predictive powers, the ONLY reason you gave why it should be considered the divine word of a God so I guess it's just another fictional book? I thought so.

You really are sitting there still believing you have the moral high ground after we have already given you so much proof that the Bible is not a moral guidebook and I've given you links to studies that show atheists are less likely to get divorced, more likely to raise happy moral children, less likely to commit crimes and have the audacity to say leaving "the church" will lead to a slide into immoral behaviors? I could seriously point out all the hypocrisy of Christianity but it would be lost on you.

Even if we were to concede that the Bible is full of lovely goodness that explicitly rejects slavery and misogyny it would still not prove that your God exists or that Jesus died and rose from the dead and if you believe in him you'll be granted an eternity in a paradise realm. All of these magical tales are still unproven but that wasn't the point of this thread, it was about morality and the old laws of the OT and we can't say it's worth believing in as written, I'm glad you seem to be conceding that finally.

There's no need for any of us to consult your God for answers, we don't think he exists, how would that help us? If your God does speak to you why don't you ask him to show us a sign that he is real? Why do we have to take the time to go find him when he's the all-powerful one? He's the one who's trying to save us? We are already better people for not believing in him, so we don't have one incentive to go looking for him, in fact we have plenty of reasons to continue being atheist if we truly want to be moral and good people.

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30-03-2016, 06:28 PM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've been presented with the troubling verses and passages shared by you before. Please be aware, that even if you find me offensive, many millions of sincere believers, some of them theologians, some of them degreed scholars, have looked at the issues, in depth, in context, in the original languages, in prayer, and have concluded differently than you.
That is the Bandwagon Fallacy. The number of people who believe in an idea is no indication of the truth of that idea.

(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  For the sake of my time and also for yours, to prevent me from getting more frustrated and also to prevent you from being more frustrated, may I gently suggest that if we come to an agreement that the Bible is pro-woman and anti-slavery, that I don't perceive the real issues will be solved?
You cannot say that the bible is pro-woman and anti-slavery unless you re-write it.

You are correct, (don't say that very often, do we?) in that misogyny and slavery are not the only issues. There is genocide, infanticide, incest, murder, pillage, immorality and a complete lack of ethics and consistency. Among other things.

(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  To be honest--and the Bible agrees with my anecdotal experience here--people never turn from God for strictly theological reasons, but for personal reasons.
Your anecdotal experience means nothing. Given your lack of integrity that you've exhibited so far, it means less than nothing.

(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have many stories--and the Bible agrees with my slant here--of people who left the church upset about Hell, slavery, whatever--and within days were known to have changed their moral patterns significantly.
Given the track records of the modern (and historic) churches, I'd imagine that someone leaving one would have their morals improved.

(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Upset about Hell, then divorcing their spouse and hurting their children. Saying the Bible is a white man's misogynist book, and then fornicating with casual acquaintances and so on.

Ad hominem. And a rather pathetic one at that. I think you already played the "atheists love to sin" card this thread.

You also don't seem to realize what you imply about yourself. That the only reason that you don't casually fornicate, beat your wife and kids and all those other sins, is the threat of hell. So that implies that you want to do those things, which correlates with the tendency of people to project their own faults on others. Not very flattering.

(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Now, I also recognize that many of you did not slide down that fast. Some of you agonized a long time before leaving the church and changing your lifestyle as a result. We have someone here who read the Bible multiple times, even took notes.
My lifestyle hasn't changed all that much, still kind of quiet really. But I've educated myself a great deal more, I've learned a lot and I've read books that I would never had if I'd remained a believer. I say my horizons have broadened and my critical thinking skills have improved.

(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But if I'm going to get into it and type multiple thousands of words in responses to explain slavery--and go back and forth five more times to get the other person aligned--I'll do it with people open to Jesus Christ. Sorry.
If that means you are leaving then I can't say that I'm sorry. If you have to lie for your god, that doesn't say much for your god, does it?
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've already posted thousands of words here on each of these subjects. If you really want to know--talk to God about these things. I have! He answers!
Then ask god why he didn't give you the arguments necessary to refute ours?

Surely the god who created this universe could give you the words to resolve the questions we posited.

Guess not.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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31-03-2016, 10:13 AM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 09:17 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I've been presented with the troubling verses and passages shared by you before. Please be aware, that even if you find me offensive, many millions of sincere believers, some of them theologians, some of them degreed scholars, have looked at the issues, in depth, in context, in the original languages, in prayer, and have concluded differently than you.

For the sake of my time and also for yours, to prevent me from getting more frustrated and also to prevent you from being more frustrated, may I gently suggest that if we come to an agreement that the Bible is pro-woman and anti-slavery, that I don't perceive the real issues will be solved? To be honest--and the Bible agrees with my anecdotal experience here--people never turn from God for strictly theological reasons, but for personal reasons. I have many stories--and the Bible agrees with my slant here--of people who left the church upset about Hell, slavery, whatever--and within days were known to have changed their moral patterns significantly. Upset about Hell, then divorcing their spouse and hurting their children. Saying the Bible is a white man's misogynist book, and then fornicating with casual acquaintances and so on.

Now, I also recognize that many of you did not slide down that fast. Some of you agonized a long time before leaving the church and changing your lifestyle as a result. We have someone here who read the Bible multiple times, even took notes.

But if I'm going to get into it and type multiple thousands of words in responses to explain slavery--and go back and forth five more times to get the other person aligned--I'll do it with people open to Jesus Christ. Sorry.

I've already posted thousands of words here on each of these subjects. If you really want to know--talk to God about these things. I have! He answers!

My "lifestyle" is essentially the same as it was when I was a practicing Catholic. The only major difference is that I have an hour or two more free time on Sunday. Furthermore, most Catholics and other Christians that I know have a lifestyle that is indistinguishable from that of most atheists, except for the time they spend in church on Sunday.

The whole "lifestyle" argument is a red herring. I didn't become an atheist so that I could "sin without guilt". I became an atheist because religion didn't make any sense. Stop insulting me (and all of us) by insinuating otherwise.

You hit the nail--"most Christians I know". I'm speaking of people who left a lifestyle of long abstinence from any number of things to "go and sin more".

And since atheists do MANY things 10 commandments observers don't, I'm not buying what you are selling here.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-03-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: God's Laws
(30-03-2016 12:29 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I've been presented with the troubling verses and passages shared by you before. Please be aware, that even if you find me offensive, many millions of sincere believers, some of them theologians, some of them degreed scholars, have looked at the issues, in depth, in context, in the original languages, in prayer, and have concluded differently than you.

For the sake of my time and also for yours, to prevent me from getting more frustrated and also to prevent you from being more frustrated, may I gently suggest that if we come to an agreement that the Bible is pro-woman and anti-slavery, that I don't perceive the real issues will be solved? To be honest--and the Bible agrees with my anecdotal experience here--people never turn from God for strictly theological reasons, but for personal reasons. I have many stories--and the Bible agrees with my slant here--of people who left the church upset about Hell, slavery, whatever--and within days were known to have changed their moral patterns significantly. Upset about Hell, then divorcing their spouse and hurting their children. Saying the Bible is a white man's misogynist book, and then fornicating with casual acquaintances and so on.

Now, I also recognize that many of you did not slide down that fast. Some of you agonized a long time before leaving the church and changing your lifestyle as a result. We have someone here who read the Bible multiple times, even took notes.

But if I'm going to get into it and type multiple thousands of words in responses to explain slavery--and go back and forth five more times to get the other person aligned--I'll do it with people open to Jesus Christ. Sorry.

I've already posted thousands of words here on each of these subjects. If you really want to know--talk to God about these things. I have! He answers!

You will accept the sincere findings of someone who believes in God about the Bible after they had to pray about it for a long time but when someone who doesn't believe reads it and studies it and is also very sincere but comes away feeling it's an old book of immoral nonsense that's no good to you? Ok fine, you clearly suffer from confirmation bias. I also don't see anything in your response that proves the Bible has predictive powers, the ONLY reason you gave why it should be considered the divine word of a God so I guess it's just another fictional book? I thought so.

You really are sitting there still believing you have the moral high ground after we have already given you so much proof that the Bible is not a moral guidebook and I've given you links to studies that show atheists are less likely to get divorced, more likely to raise happy moral children, less likely to commit crimes and have the audacity to say leaving "the church" will lead to a slide into immoral behaviors? I could seriously point out all the hypocrisy of Christianity but it would be lost on you.

Even if we were to concede that the Bible is full of lovely goodness that explicitly rejects slavery and misogyny it would still not prove that your God exists or that Jesus died and rose from the dead and if you believe in him you'll be granted an eternity in a paradise realm. All of these magical tales are still unproven but that wasn't the point of this thread, it was about morality and the old laws of the OT and we can't say it's worth believing in as written, I'm glad you seem to be conceding that finally.

There's no need for any of us to consult your God for answers, we don't think he exists, how would that help us? If your God does speak to you why don't you ask him to show us a sign that he is real? Why do we have to take the time to go find him when he's the all-powerful one? He's the one who's trying to save us? We are already better people for not believing in him, so we don't have one incentive to go looking for him, in fact we have plenty of reasons to continue being atheist if we truly want to be moral and good people.

I can go with what you are presenting here, except for three exceptions that come to mind:

1. You never answered why I can believe without miracles and signs, yet you need special visitations and special things God didn't provide to me.

2. Whom did you study the Bible with? Reading a book and studying a book can be different things.

3. You again speak of consulting God for answers. How did you miss in reading Jesus's words in the gospels--and elsewhere in the Bible--that consulting God is done in a far different place and frame of mind than in an atheist forum?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-03-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: God's Laws
(31-03-2016 10:13 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 09:17 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  My "lifestyle" is essentially the same as it was when I was a practicing Catholic. The only major difference is that I have an hour or two more free time on Sunday. Furthermore, most Catholics and other Christians that I know have a lifestyle that is indistinguishable from that of most atheists, except for the time they spend in church on Sunday.

The whole "lifestyle" argument is a red herring. I didn't become an atheist so that I could "sin without guilt". I became an atheist because religion didn't make any sense. Stop insulting me (and all of us) by insinuating otherwise.

You hit the nail--"most Christians I know". I'm speaking of people who left a lifestyle of long abstinence from any number of things to "go and sin more".

And since atheists do MANY things 10 commandments observers don't, I'm not buying what you are selling here.

I would also figure vastly most atheists don't break most of the 10 commandments... the arbitrary line of whatever the hell honoring the sabbath is supposed to mean could be one.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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31-03-2016, 10:16 AM
RE: God's Laws
(31-03-2016 10:15 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 10:13 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You hit the nail--"most Christians I know". I'm speaking of people who left a lifestyle of long abstinence from any number of things to "go and sin more".

And since atheists do MANY things 10 commandments observers don't, I'm not buying what you are selling here.

I would also figure vastly most atheists don't break most of the 10 commandments... the arbitrary line of whatever the hell honoring the sabbath is supposed to mean could be one.

Spoken like someone who hasn't considered the Decalogue in a while. I make it that atheists break something like 8 of 10, on average.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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