God's Laws
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01-04-2016, 11:59 AM
RE: God's Laws
(01-04-2016 09:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  To answer both your questions... if you've read the Bible and prayed about what you read, it will happen for you, eventually, or no. But you aren't helping your cause here at TTA.

Here's one example of prophecy I'm "stuck on". I'd like to hear from an atheist its logical refutation:

Israel will be scattered to many nations, and in ALL of these nations, they will serve as shining lights there--as blessings--and in ALL of these nations, they will be hated and persecuted, and after a long time, they will be returned to their biblical geographic land, as a Jewish nation, surrounded by their enemies.

I hear talk of self-fulfilled prophecy. Do you think the Jews "self-fulfilled" being brilliant in the arts, culture and sciences, and then "self-fulfilled" being persecuted in dozens of nations on multiple continents?

You didn't even give me the entire verse or put it in context, I assume you are referring to Ezekiel 28:24-26 which predicts that Israel will live in peace with its neighbors:
No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God. (NIV)

As of right this moment Israel is not living in safety nor has the Lord done anything about it. Yes, Israel was re-established but one of the major reasons is because the Jewish people believed it's their destiny to return to the land because of this specific prophecy yet you seemed to miss the major part that they will live in peace with their neighbors, you actually wrote the opposite that they will be hated which is true but that's not what the Bible says.

The Bible also predicts the land of Israel will extend to the Red Sea and the Euphrates which is currently does not. I can agree that the Jewish people have contributed a lot to society so have all the races, it's not like it was only them. If this is God's specially chosen people and they have returned to their special holy land why hasn't he done anything to end the strife there and truly fulfill the prophecy or is he ok with the constant war there?

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02-04-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: God's Laws
(01-04-2016 09:59 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But you drew your conclusion from far more than "this" as you wrote. Your conclusion was drawn from your thoughts about the moral reasons against child death.
So you're claiming that the deaths of all these infants is morally acceptable?

Quote:I have no problem with children dying and going to Heaven--especially before they grow up to become atheists.
You don't have any evidence at all that your "heaven" exists. Therefore you can't logically presume that dead children "go" to heaven. Which means that—as you say—you have no problem with children dying. What a sick arsehole you must be in real life.

Quote:I do have a problem when my children hurt or suffer [...]
So you're also a selfish, self-centred arsehole? And fuck everybody else? Charming.

Quote:[...] but I also have a peaceable understanding and perspective. I have, you might say, a long-term perspective.
Meaningless, self-serving psychobabble.

Quote:[...] atheists very typically have half-full glasses in life, and about most things!
Which is obviously far better than the typical theist's empty glass.

—Your incessant sanctimony is only exceeded by your constant condescension.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-04-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: God's Laws
(01-04-2016 10:30 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 09:59 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have no problem with children dying and going to Heaven--especially before they grow up to become atheists.

Better dead than atheist? That says a great deal about your character.

Are all those non-xtian children going to heaven? The muslims? The atheist children? The unbaptized? Depending on who you talk to, some or all of them are in hell.

(01-04-2016 09:59 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have, you might say, a long-term perspective.

You described your perspective above. From where I'm standing it's pretty fucked up.

(01-04-2016 09:59 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Are you a person with a soul or "only" a fish in the sea? Most fish in the sea don't make it to adulthood. Most people, do. To quote OO7 in Spectre, "It's all a matter of perspective," and I've noticed--atheists very typically have half-full glasses in life, and about most things! Which makes sense, if you will die and some years later, be unremembered, be nothing, and have nothing.

We are animals. This has been proven beyond all doubt, in multiple ways. Devout xtian scientists spent their entire lives trying to prove we weren't animals, but were unable to do so.

Do we have a soul? Define soul. If you mean something that continues after death, no. Nothing has ever been described scientifically that indicates a soul.

And no, most people do not make it to adulthood. According to you, your god invented infant mortality, natural miscarriages, disease, and all those other cruelties. The population is increasing, so more live than die, but I would not say most. Of course, you could quote some statistics, references, but I notice you don't do that, do you?

Yes, when we die we will be forgotten. Once everyone that knew you is gone, you will be forgotten. Even the few who make it into history are mostly forgotten. We know some facts, some events that happened, but we usually don't know them really.

You were not here before. You are here now. Eventually, you will be gone.
There's nothing you can do but enjoy the time you have.

So put on your big-boy-pants and quit whining about it.

William Lane Craig has made this argument before--we get upset about a child dying who could have become a Hitler. Start thinking about people other than yourself, if you want to gain this sort of perspective. If my child died a young believer--than no, they would never grow up to hurl insults at believers on TTA.

You may be confusing something in your statement, "nothing scientifically describes a soul". I think you are misrepresenting--if unintentionally, millions of anecdotes about soul experiences, and the countless anomalies that evolution fails to explain about the human state.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-04-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: God's Laws
(01-04-2016 11:59 AM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 09:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  To answer both your questions... if you've read the Bible and prayed about what you read, it will happen for you, eventually, or no. But you aren't helping your cause here at TTA.

Here's one example of prophecy I'm "stuck on". I'd like to hear from an atheist its logical refutation:

Israel will be scattered to many nations, and in ALL of these nations, they will serve as shining lights there--as blessings--and in ALL of these nations, they will be hated and persecuted, and after a long time, they will be returned to their biblical geographic land, as a Jewish nation, surrounded by their enemies.

I hear talk of self-fulfilled prophecy. Do you think the Jews "self-fulfilled" being brilliant in the arts, culture and sciences, and then "self-fulfilled" being persecuted in dozens of nations on multiple continents?

You didn't even give me the entire verse or put it in context, I assume you are referring to Ezekiel 28:24-26 which predicts that Israel will live in peace with its neighbors:
No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God. (NIV)

As of right this moment Israel is not living in safety nor has the Lord done anything about it. Yes, Israel was re-established but one of the major reasons is because the Jewish people believed it's their destiny to return to the land because of this specific prophecy yet you seemed to miss the major part that they will live in peace with their neighbors, you actually wrote the opposite that they will be hated which is true but that's not what the Bible says.

The Bible also predicts the land of Israel will extend to the Red Sea and the Euphrates which is currently does not. I can agree that the Jewish people have contributed a lot to society so have all the races, it's not like it was only them. If this is God's specially chosen people and they have returned to their special holy land why hasn't he done anything to end the strife there and truly fulfill the prophecy or is he ok with the constant war there?

I agree. Israel, Egypt and other nations have not had the boundaries set on them by prophecy. Understand that prophecies fulfilled and also ones yet to be fulfilled are not in the linear order we would expect--but that has as much to do with the ANE non-linear method of storytelling as anything else. Israel does not extend to the Euphrates yet, Egypt does not have a border within modern Cairo yet and etc. however, the Bible is astonishingly accurate about many events that have come to pass.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-04-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: God's Laws
(02-04-2016 09:53 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 09:59 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But you drew your conclusion from far more than "this" as you wrote. Your conclusion was drawn from your thoughts about the moral reasons against child death.
So you're claiming that the deaths of all these infants is morally acceptable?

Quote:I have no problem with children dying and going to Heaven--especially before they grow up to become atheists.
You don't have any evidence at all that your "heaven" exists. Therefore you can't logically presume that dead children "go" to heaven. Which means that—as you say—you have no problem with children dying. What a sick arsehole you must be in real life.

Quote:I do have a problem when my children hurt or suffer [...]
So you're also a selfish, self-centred arsehole? And fuck everybody else? Charming.

Quote:[...] but I also have a peaceable understanding and perspective. I have, you might say, a long-term perspective.
Meaningless, self-serving psychobabble.

Quote:[...] atheists very typically have half-full glasses in life, and about most things!
Which is obviously far better than the typical theist's empty glass.

—Your incessant sanctimony is only exceeded by your constant condescension.

I'm actually making a double claim:

1. You have used a combination of arbitrary or perhaps societally-based biases to decide, with little evidence, that the death of younger humans is "wrong". First, you are going to have to figure out how you came to understand that children are "innocent" based on a logical or scientific response, not an emotional response.

2. How do you maintain your double standard? That children are "innocent" but adults do not "sin"?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-04-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: God's Laws
(11-04-2016 01:12 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  William Lane Craig has made this argument before--we get upset about a child dying who could have become a Hitler. Start thinking about people other than yourself, if you want to gain this sort of perspective. If my child died a young believer--than no, they would never grow up to hurl insults at believers on TTA.

WLC is a fool. He doesn't "make arguments". He lies ... and says he would believe no matter what any "arguments" are.

Quote:I think you are misrepresenting--if unintentionally, millions of anecdotes about soul experiences, and the countless anomalies that evolution fails to explain about the human state.

An argument from ignorance.
Even IF there were things that were unexplained, (which you have not even attempted to lay out), it's still just "gap filling" to plug in your deity.

I thought you were leaving.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-04-2016, 02:06 PM
RE: God's Laws
He's already gone.




#sigh
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11-04-2016, 02:08 PM
RE: God's Laws
(11-04-2016 01:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 09:53 AM)SYZ Wrote:  So you're claiming that the deaths of all these infants is morally acceptable?

You don't have any evidence at all that your "heaven" exists. Therefore you can't logically presume that dead children "go" to heaven. Which means that—as you say—you have no problem with children dying. What a sick arsehole you must be in real life.

So you're also a selfish, self-centred arsehole? And fuck everybody else? Charming.

Meaningless, self-serving psychobabble.

Which is obviously far better than the typical theist's empty glass.

—Your incessant sanctimony is only exceeded by your constant condescension.

I'm actually making a double claim:

1. You have used a combination of arbitrary or perhaps societally-based biases to decide, with little evidence, that the death of younger humans is "wrong". First, you are going to have to figure out how you came to understand that children are "innocent" based on a logical or scientific response, not an emotional response.

2. How do you maintain your double standard? That children are "innocent" but adults do not "sin"?

You promised to leave. You're a fucking liar. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-04-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: God's Laws
(11-04-2016 02:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  You promised to leave. You're a fucking liar. Drinking Beverage

Was that ever in doubt?

#sigh
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11-04-2016, 03:36 PM
RE: God's Laws
(11-04-2016 01:12 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think you are misrepresenting

Says the certified liar. Thumbsup

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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