God's Laws
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04-03-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: God's Laws
(03-03-2016 05:22 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 08:28 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You will want to think of God's Law like walls surrounding the field in a sports stadium, and policeman on the field. Both are there to protect the players on the field from the (sometimes incensed) crowds:

1. If virgins married virgins, would either transmit STIs?

2. If people didn't murder, wouldn't life be better protected?

3. If people ate less shellfish and pork, would they live longer?

Etc. with hundreds of the laws having direct and indirect benefits for all.

...regarding the rest of your post, people still pay for their deeds. A prisoner who trusts Jesus Christ while in jail receives eternal life, but the prison doors don't suddenly open. If we're honest, both you and I have suffered in the past because of sin. We still sin, still suffer, but Jesus offers eternal life:

He died a horrible death, a death by torture, to take away our imperfection. Trust Him today and you are saved.

First of all most of God's laws are either unnecessary or just plain weird. Eating shellfish back when the bible was written would've been pretty risky since refrigeration hadn't been invented yet and pigs were thought to be filthy animals who ate garbage and rolled around in filth all day so that's why they were seen as unfit to eat, nothing to do with health since it says nothing about eating steak, bread or cheese and that's pretty unhealthy.

Life is protected because we have laws against murder but God wants his tribe to murder all people who aren't in his tribe, even the babies and they should be happy to do so, he's a hypocrite.

Just because virgins marry doesn't mean they won't cheat on each other and spread an STD to each other, they are also more likely to be unhappy about their sex lives so it might be better to wait for true love to have sex instead of waiting for marriage. Christians are also more likely to get divorced so there is no link between Gods Laws and happy marriages.

As a moral human who respects the life of all other humans and feels that blood sacrifices are moraly abhorrant the brutal execution of Jesus Christ is not a gift or a special magic that somehow allows me to be "forgiven" for whatever small crimes I may have committed in my life. I wouldn've rather seen Jesus live a lot longer and spread a message of brotherly love and kindness until he was an old man. Upholding a human sacrifice as being a good thing is completely immoral.

So your goal is to get people to not abide by laws? That's kind of how I'm reading what you wrote:

1. Go tell your doctor that because shellfish and pork were a "back then" thing, that you're replacing your fruits, veggies and whole grains with them.

2. The Israelites certainly ate meat and dairy in moderation. Good point. We are to all eat balanced if we can.

3. I've addressed the slaughter of innocents on other TTA threads. Have you asked God personally why this law exists?

4. You are correct that virgins may cheat on each other. You are incorrect if you find a high correlation between two virgins marrying and spouse infidelity. What are they looking to compare with what? What about their commitment to wait for marriage to begin?

5. On what basis do you define human sacrifice as immoral, since 1) you repudiate the Bible Law? 2) you have no absolutes as an atheist regarding moral law or morals actually existing somewhere 3) If your child was crossing a street and was to be struck by a car, would your sacrifice of pushing them out of the way and being struck be "immoral"? (This last question is rhetorical, by the way.)

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-03-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: God's Laws
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04-03-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: God's Laws
(04-03-2016 09:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've addressed the myth about raped virgins elsewhere at TTA.

Quote:Numbers
31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

What do you think that a bunch of soldiers are going to do with a group of virgins that they have just been given as the spoils of war?

Especially when you consider the status of women during that time period.

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04-03-2016, 11:10 AM
RE: God's Laws
(04-03-2016 10:20 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 09:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've addressed the myth about raped virgins elsewhere at TTA.

Quote:Numbers
31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

What do you think that a bunch of soldiers are going to do with a group of virgins that they have just been given as the spoils of war?

Especially when you consider the status of women during that time period.

Well, clearly these nomadic bloodthirsty Bronze Age barbarians on the warpath with the backing of the One True God would just make them perform menial labor and treat them like absolute gentlemen. You know, just like they treated the girl's murdered relatives. Oh wait... Dodgy

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04-03-2016, 01:15 PM
RE: God's Laws
(04-03-2016 10:02 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 05:22 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  First of all most of God's laws are either unnecessary or just plain weird. Eating shellfish back when the bible was written would've been pretty risky since refrigeration hadn't been invented yet and pigs were thought to be filthy animals who ate garbage and rolled around in filth all day so that's why they were seen as unfit to eat, nothing to do with health since it says nothing about eating steak, bread or cheese and that's pretty unhealthy.

Life is protected because we have laws against murder but God wants his tribe to murder all people who aren't in his tribe, even the babies and they should be happy to do so, he's a hypocrite.

Just because virgins marry doesn't mean they won't cheat on each other and spread an STD to each other, they are also more likely to be unhappy about their sex lives so it might be better to wait for true love to have sex instead of waiting for marriage. Christians are also more likely to get divorced so there is no link between Gods Laws and happy marriages.

As a moral human who respects the life of all other humans and feels that blood sacrifices are moraly abhorrant the brutal execution of Jesus Christ is not a gift or a special magic that somehow allows me to be "forgiven" for whatever small crimes I may have committed in my life. I wouldn've rather seen Jesus live a lot longer and spread a message of brotherly love and kindness until he was an old man. Upholding a human sacrifice as being a good thing is completely immoral.

So your goal is to get people to not abide by laws? That's kind of how I'm reading what you wrote:

1. Go tell your doctor that because shellfish and pork were a "back then" thing, that you're replacing your fruits, veggies and whole grains with them.

2. The Israelites certainly ate meat and dairy in moderation. Good point. We are to all eat balanced if we can.

3. I've addressed the slaughter of innocents on other TTA threads. Have you asked God personally why this law exists?

4. You are correct that virgins may cheat on each other. You are incorrect if you find a high correlation between two virgins marrying and spouse infidelity. What are they looking to compare with what? What about their commitment to wait for marriage to begin?

5. On what basis do you define human sacrifice as immoral, since 1) you repudiate the Bible Law? 2) you have no absolutes as an atheist regarding moral law or morals actually existing somewhere 3) If your child was crossing a street and was to be struck by a car, would your sacrifice of pushing them out of the way and being struck be "immoral"? (This last question is rhetorical, by the way.)

I never said we should "only" eat shellfish and pork, but having a law that explicitly says not to eat those things doesn't make any sense in our modern world, even back then I would agree eating fish in a land locked country where freezers aren't invented yet isn't a good idea, but the men who wrote the Bible weren't aware that it's not an issue in Japan for example and they were eating raw fish and were just fine.

Thanks for thinking I have a good point but why would God have a law against certain foods and not others that are unhealthy?

Have you asked God personally why he has so many laws that require the killing of innocents? You're the one who believes in him, not me. I can just say the men who wrote the Bible wanted to be seen as "chosen" so they went around killing people who believed in a different God, makes much more sense than saying an all loving being said so.

Just because someone made a commitment to wait until marriage for sex doesn't mean they will stay married to that person or they won't cheat. You are trying to correlate someone who doesn't want to have sex until they marry someone to someone who also is very loyal, faithful, etc. but they are still people and they can still cheat, no reason to think it's impossible.

I think human sacrifice as immoral based on reason, logic, my own morality that was shaped by my life experiences, the culture I grew up in, my parent's morality, etc. If you base your morality on the Bible than you would think human sacrifice is just fine. You would also think witches are real and they deserve to die since they are in compact with Satan. How is that moral or even based on reality?

How do you know some of the laws in the Bible are wrong and shouldn't be followed? For example, do you think someone should die for working on the Sabbath? Probably not, but why? If your objective moral standard is the Bible you would be obligated to kill people who work on the Sabbath or at least have them arrested or punished somehow but you don't, you must have a moral standard that exists separate from the Bible and all Christians do, that means your morality is based on something else just like everyone, even Atheists.

If you want to play that game that Atheists can't have moral standards than just remember that we make up less than 1% of the prison population, secular morality has been proven more effective than Christian morality, the more we progress as a species morally the more your Bible will be left behind.
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04-03-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: God's Laws
(04-03-2016 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If you were like 99% of the world, you would "get" that God will judge you for how you respond to God and how you love/don't love your neighbor.

If only more than a tiny handful of those people could agree with each other on what we're supposedly going to be judged for. Then you might be on to something.

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04-03-2016, 02:01 PM
RE: God's Laws
(04-03-2016 01:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If you were like 99% of the world, you would "get" that God will judge you for how you respond to God and how you love/don't love your neighbor.

If only more than a tiny handful of those people could agree with each other on what we're supposedly going to be judged for. Then you might be on to something.

This a great point, there are tens of thousands of different denominations of Christianity, if the Bible was clear and concise and didn't contradict itself so much we would only have one denomination and one clear moral code. You would think an all knowing being could inspire a book that makes more sense.
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04-03-2016, 02:11 PM
RE: God's Laws
(04-03-2016 02:01 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 01:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If only more than a tiny handful of those people could agree with each other on what we're supposedly going to be judged for. Then you might be on to something.

This a great point, there are tens of thousands of different denominations of Christianity, if the Bible was clear and concise and didn't contradict itself so much we would only have one denomination and one clear moral code. You would think an all knowing being could inspire a book that makes more sense.

For a hack apologist - like our friend Q - what constitutes "we" depends on the question and how dishonest he's feeling at the moment.

"99%* of the world believes in God!"
"Okay... Is that God Jesus?"
"25% of the world thinks so! Wait. Hang on..."
And so forth.

* and of course the 99% figure isn't true either; it might be 90%

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05-03-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: God's Laws
None of "god's laws" contain any calculus or physics.

That right there should at least tell people that this imaginary thing couldn't possibly create something that it doesn't understand.

If the bible only contained complex mathematical formulas describing the nature of the universe that we still couldn't figure out, then I would happily embrace that alien intelligence does exist elsewhere in the universe.

I still wouldn't believe in gods though.

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06-03-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: God's Laws
(28-02-2016 09:52 AM)mgoering Wrote:  When Christians are asked why there are so many laws in the OT that they don't abide by (such as wearing clothes of different fabrics) they famously say that the OT laws don't apply anymore because we have a new covenant with God.

Then why are they constantly citing the ten commandments as important God-given laws that we must follow? What makes the ten commandments unique from all of the other absurd laws in the OT?

And what does it mean when Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" ?

Christians should either obey ever last law written in the OT, to the tee (because how can you sincerely make a distinction between one and another), or completely dismiss it as the OLD covenants and not worthy of obedience. But, for God sake, stop cherry picking!

People cherry pick all the time, nothing too out of the ordinary there, so when I see Christians jumping through contradictory hoops to make their nonsense work I generally just roll my eyes and pat them on the head.

For me the question is why do you support NOW a "god" that in the past believed that "sell your raped daughter to her rapist, and if she doesn't like it just bash her brains out with a rock!" was EVER, at any fucking time, a good moral to impart on an entire culture/world. The fact you have a new covenant doesn't distract from the fact that it's with a fucking monster.

It seems to me that the death of Jesus didn't wipe away OUR sins but gods.Consider

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