God's Laws
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06-03-2016, 12:43 PM
RE: God's Laws
(06-03-2016 12:41 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 09:52 AM)mgoering Wrote:  When Christians are asked why there are so many laws in the OT that they don't abide by (such as wearing clothes of different fabrics) they famously say that the OT laws don't apply anymore because we have a new covenant with God.

Then why are they constantly citing the ten commandments as important God-given laws that we must follow? What makes the ten commandments unique from all of the other absurd laws in the OT?

And what does it mean when Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" ?

Christians should either obey ever last law written in the OT, to the tee (because how can you sincerely make a distinction between one and another), or completely dismiss it as the OLD covenants and not worthy of obedience. But, for God sake, stop cherry picking!

People cherry pick all the time, nothing too out of the ordinary there, so when I see Christians jumping through contradictory hoops to make their nonsense work I generally just roll my eyes and pat them on the head.

For me the question is why do you support NOW a "god" that in the past believed that "sell your raped daughter to her rapist, and if she doesn't like it just bash her brains out with a rock!" was EVER, at any fucking time, a good moral to impart on an entire culture/world. The fact you have a new covenant doesn't distract from the fact that it's with a fucking monster.
It seems to me that the death of Jesus didn't wipe away OUR sins but gods.Consider
It's the same problem I have with Neo-Nazis to be honest, like....you can't pretend you not a follower of a brutal and dictatorial piece of shit.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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07-03-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: God's Laws
(04-03-2016 01:15 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 10:02 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So your goal is to get people to not abide by laws? That's kind of how I'm reading what you wrote:

1. Go tell your doctor that because shellfish and pork were a "back then" thing, that you're replacing your fruits, veggies and whole grains with them.

2. The Israelites certainly ate meat and dairy in moderation. Good point. We are to all eat balanced if we can.

3. I've addressed the slaughter of innocents on other TTA threads. Have you asked God personally why this law exists?

4. You are correct that virgins may cheat on each other. You are incorrect if you find a high correlation between two virgins marrying and spouse infidelity. What are they looking to compare with what? What about their commitment to wait for marriage to begin?

5. On what basis do you define human sacrifice as immoral, since 1) you repudiate the Bible Law? 2) you have no absolutes as an atheist regarding moral law or morals actually existing somewhere 3) If your child was crossing a street and was to be struck by a car, would your sacrifice of pushing them out of the way and being struck be "immoral"? (This last question is rhetorical, by the way.)

I never said we should "only" eat shellfish and pork, but having a law that explicitly says not to eat those things doesn't make any sense in our modern world, even back then I would agree eating fish in a land locked country where freezers aren't invented yet isn't a good idea, but the men who wrote the Bible weren't aware that it's not an issue in Japan for example and they were eating raw fish and were just fine.

Thanks for thinking I have a good point but why would God have a law against certain foods and not others that are unhealthy?

Have you asked God personally why he has so many laws that require the killing of innocents? You're the one who believes in him, not me. I can just say the men who wrote the Bible wanted to be seen as "chosen" so they went around killing people who believed in a different God, makes much more sense than saying an all loving being said so.

Just because someone made a commitment to wait until marriage for sex doesn't mean they will stay married to that person or they won't cheat. You are trying to correlate someone who doesn't want to have sex until they marry someone to someone who also is very loyal, faithful, etc. but they are still people and they can still cheat, no reason to think it's impossible.

I think human sacrifice as immoral based on reason, logic, my own morality that was shaped by my life experiences, the culture I grew up in, my parent's morality, etc. If you base your morality on the Bible than you would think human sacrifice is just fine. You would also think witches are real and they deserve to die since they are in compact with Satan. How is that moral or even based on reality?

How do you know some of the laws in the Bible are wrong and shouldn't be followed? For example, do you think someone should die for working on the Sabbath? Probably not, but why? If your objective moral standard is the Bible you would be obligated to kill people who work on the Sabbath or at least have them arrested or punished somehow but you don't, you must have a moral standard that exists separate from the Bible and all Christians do, that means your morality is based on something else just like everyone, even Atheists.

If you want to play that game that Atheists can't have moral standards than just remember that we make up less than 1% of the prison population, secular morality has been proven more effective than Christian morality, the more we progress as a species morally the more your Bible will be left behind.

A law to not eat shellfish and pork was not only for health reasons but for Israel, and of course, others in this world, to understand the good/clean and bad/unclean alterity. Jesus gave laws because He cares about souls more than human dietary concerns.

Quote:Have you asked God personally why he has so many laws that require the killing of innocents?

I sure have. He's great with answers.

Quote:Just because someone made a commitment to wait until marriage for sex doesn't mean they will stay married to that person or they won't cheat.

No, there are no guarantees, but there are good correlations between waiting for marriage (faithfulness before marriage) and faithfulness after marriage.

Quote:You would also think witches are real and they deserve to die since they are in compact with Satan. How is that moral or even based on reality?

The law you are thinking of was for witches among Israel, Israel that at that time was being led by God through a wilderness for decades, after a mighty deliverance. You had to be really stupid to be a necromancer or a diviner there and then, right?

Quote:How do you know some of the laws in the Bible are wrong and shouldn't be followed? For example, do you think someone should die for working on the Sabbath? Probably not, but why? If your objective moral standard is the Bible you would be obligated to kill people who work on the Sabbath or at least have them arrested or punished somehow but you don't, you must have a moral standard that exists separate from the Bible and all Christians do, that means your morality is based on something else just like everyone, even Atheists.

Again, with two million Israelites one person did a little Sabbath work, another kept treasure back after a battle. God knows what He is doing, and though humans kill innocents, God does much better.

Quote:If you want to play that game that Atheists can't have moral standards than just remember that we make up less than 1% of the prison population, secular morality has been proven more effective than Christian morality, the more we progress as a species morally the more your Bible will be left behind.

I'm debating someone on another forum who worked in corrections. He and I both realize it's not popular in prison to say you're an atheist, nor is it a winning hand for the parole board. But if you want to say atheists are moral without a Bible, you'd have to prove that morality is something real on its own. Otherwise it's just fear of punishment, and then we can say that atheists fear punishment more than others, rather than that they are more moral.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-03-2016, 01:34 PM
RE: God's Laws
(07-03-2016 10:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But if you want to say atheists are moral without a Bible, you'd have to prove that morality is something real on its own.

No.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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07-03-2016, 01:44 PM
RE: God's Laws
(07-03-2016 10:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God knows what He is doing, and though humans kill innocents, God does much better.

Yes, in your mythology, god is much better at killing innocents.

If the flood was true, how many pregnant women died?
And their fetuses?
How many babes in arms? Toddlers?

If the story of Exodus is true, how many of Egypt's first born were babies or toddlers?

Yes, I agree with you for once. In your stories, god is much better at killing innocents.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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07-03-2016, 01:46 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2016 01:54 PM by SitaSky.)
RE: God's Laws
(07-03-2016 10:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  A law to not eat shellfish and pork was not only for health reasons but for Israel, and of course, others in this world, to understand the good/clean and bad/unclean alterity. Jesus gave laws because He cares about souls more than human dietary concerns.

Quote:Have you asked God personally why he has so many laws that require the killing of innocents?

I sure have. He's great with answers.

Quote:Just because someone made a commitment to wait until marriage for sex doesn't mean they will stay married to that person or they won't cheat.

No, there are no guarantees, but there are good correlations between waiting for marriage (faithfulness before marriage) and faithfulness after marriage.

Quote:You would also think witches are real and they deserve to die since they are in compact with Satan. How is that moral or even based on reality?

The law you are thinking of was for witches among Israel, Israel that at that time was being led by God through a wilderness for decades, after a mighty deliverance. You had to be really stupid to be a necromancer or a diviner there and then, right?

Quote:How do you know some of the laws in the Bible are wrong and shouldn't be followed? For example, do you think someone should die for working on the Sabbath? Probably not, but why? If your objective moral standard is the Bible you would be obligated to kill people who work on the Sabbath or at least have them arrested or punished somehow but you don't, you must have a moral standard that exists separate from the Bible and all Christians do, that means your morality is based on something else just like everyone, even Atheists.

Again, with two million Israelites one person did a little Sabbath work, another kept treasure back after a battle. God knows what He is doing, and though humans kill innocents, God does much better.

Quote:If you want to play that game that Atheists can't have moral standards than just remember that we make up less than 1% of the prison population, secular morality has been proven more effective than Christian morality, the more we progress as a species morally the more your Bible will be left behind.

I'm debating someone on another forum who worked in corrections. He and I both realize it's not popular in prison to say you're an atheist, nor is it a winning hand for the parole board. But if you want to say atheists are moral without a Bible, you'd have to prove that morality is something real on its own. Otherwise it's just fear of punishment, and then we can say that atheists fear punishment more than others, rather than that they are more moral.

Secular morality has already been shown to be more useful in society than religious morality which really does just boil down to " I don't want to be punished by the sky daddy that created everything". If I do something wrong and I get caught I will be punished but more than that I will have hurt someone, even if I just steal something I have hurt a business and I don't want to go around hurting people or their businesses or animals for that matter. Since I have no objective biblical moral code how do you explain that? According to your logic I will have to be afraid of eternal punishment but I'm not since I don't have any evidence of any afterlife so anything I do will only effect myself and others here on Earth. God has many laws you like to reject because those were for the Israelites and not for yourself but how do you decide which laws you want to keep? You would have to use your own subjective morality to make that decision since your morality exists outside of the Bible. There, I have just proven morality is "real on it's own."

Here is a link to an article citing research on Atheist/Agnostic Children:
Raising Children Without Religion

Here is an article on secular morality:
How Morality can be Objective without God

Here is an article on religion in prison:
Atheists in Prison

I don't think it's fair to say "I talked to this corrections officer online and he said Atheists lie and just pretend to be Christian so they don't get beaten by all the actual Christians." By that logic I can say a lot of the Christians are lying and are actually Satanists, would that make any sense? Would that be fair? Even if we go by that logic and they all stopped lying and admitted they were Atheist how much would the percentage go up from 0.007%? would it go up 5%? 10%? It would still be a vast majority of Christians and Muslims in the prison system compared to Atheists and Agnostics, the article I posted also cites other factors like education level and affluence.
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07-03-2016, 01:46 PM
RE: God's Laws
(07-03-2016 10:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Otherwise it's just fear of punishment, and then we can say that atheists fear punishment more than others, rather than that they are more moral.

You do realize that the fear of hell is the cornerstone of the christian faith?
How many times do we hear that without god and punishment, everyone would run around committing atrocities.

Atheists embody the rejection and falsification of that belief.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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07-03-2016, 06:45 PM
RE: God's Laws
(07-03-2016 01:44 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 10:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God knows what He is doing, and though humans kill innocents, God does much better.

Yes, in your mythology, god is much better at killing innocents.

If the flood was true, how many pregnant women died?
And their fetuses?
How many babes in arms? Toddlers?

If the story of Exodus is true, how many of Egypt's first born were babies or toddlers?

Yes, I agree with you for once. In your stories, god is much better at killing innocents.

I agree as well, God does a very good job at killing innocent people. It's the biggest cliche when a Christian says "Well, God has a plan, you won't understand it." You assume we don't trust it because we don't understand it but the problem is we do understand it but we know it's evil and wrong so we reject it. If you think your God is too intelligent for our puny minds to fully comprehend than why worship him? You have no clue what his intentions are, if you can't even discern his grand plan than you have no idea if his objectives are altruistic or harmful. Just because the Bible says he loved the world too much to let his son live and not die for us doesn't mean it's true, it just means someone wrote that down. For all you know your God is an all powerful psychopath who wants you to think a certain way so he can torture you forever no matter what you do. If you say "Well, you can't say that because you can't know him or his thoughts."well neither do you, no human could.
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07-03-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: God's Laws
(07-03-2016 06:45 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 01:44 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Yes, in your mythology, god is much better at killing innocents.

If the flood was true, how many pregnant women died?
And their fetuses?
How many babes in arms? Toddlers?

If the story of Exodus is true, how many of Egypt's first born were babies or toddlers?

Yes, I agree with you for once. In your stories, god is much better at killing innocents.

I agree as well, God does a very good job at killing innocent people. It's the biggest cliche when a Christian says "Well, God has a plan, you won't understand it." You assume we don't trust it because we don't understand it but the problem is we do understand it but we know it's evil and wrong so we reject it. If you think your God is too intelligent for our puny minds to fully comprehend than why worship him? You have no clue what his intentions are, if you can't even discern his grand plan than you have no idea if his objectives are altruistic or harmful. Just because the Bible says he loved the world too much to let his son live and not die for us doesn't mean it's true, it just means someone wrote that down. For all you know your God is an all powerful psychopath who wants you to think a certain way so he can torture you forever no matter what you do. If you say "Well, you can't say that because you can't know him or his thoughts."well neither do you, no human could.

The idea of christ dying is particularly annoying.

For us, death is permanent separation from the living. You can hope for a reunion in the afterlife, but for all we can tell, it's all guesswork.

If the myths are true, christ spent 30 odd years on earth, "died" and went back to heaven. So, he had the equivalent of a shitty weekend.

And that's if you accept the idea of a tripartite deity. Essentially, god sacrificed himself to himself to provide a loophole for the laws of blood sacrifice that he created. Blink

But we atheists are unreasonable. Rolleyes

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07-03-2016, 07:23 PM
RE: God's Laws
(07-03-2016 07:16 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 06:45 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I agree as well, God does a very good job at killing innocent people. It's the biggest cliche when a Christian says "Well, God has a plan, you won't understand it." You assume we don't trust it because we don't understand it but the problem is we do understand it but we know it's evil and wrong so we reject it. If you think your God is too intelligent for our puny minds to fully comprehend than why worship him? You have no clue what his intentions are, if you can't even discern his grand plan than you have no idea if his objectives are altruistic or harmful. Just because the Bible says he loved the world too much to let his son live and not die for us doesn't mean it's true, it just means someone wrote that down. For all you know your God is an all powerful psychopath who wants you to think a certain way so he can torture you forever no matter what you do. If you say "Well, you can't say that because you can't know him or his thoughts."well neither do you, no human could.

The idea of christ dying is particularly annoying.

For us, death is permanent separation from the living. You can hope for a reunion in the afterlife, but for all we can tell, it's all guesswork.

If the myths are true, christ spent 30 odd years on earth, "died" and went back to heaven. So, he had the equivalent of a shitty weekend.

And that's if you accept the idea of a tripartite deity. Essentially, god sacrificed himself to himself to provide a loophole for the laws of blood sacrifice that he created. Blink

But we atheists are unreasonable. Rolleyes

Maybe there is an even more powerful God that was holding us all hostage and if Yahweh didn't sacrifice Jesus we would all die so he had to let it happen because the other bigger God had a gun to our planet and was like "Hahaha! You have to kill your son for all those silly sinful humans!" Then God was like "They better worship both of us so hard for this, if not they can just go to Hell, I don't even care."
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09-03-2016, 10:01 AM
RE: God's Laws
All,

Arguing God's law with you is like arguing jurisprudence with convicted felons. Don't take that wrongly--no offense is implied--but you are all law flaunters and lawbreakers of God's law. Being scofflaws... you scoff at God's laws.

The biggest issue I see in the last few posts is "God kills innocent people!":

1. We are going to have to define innocent. Even the State kills guilty persons.

2. We are going to have to define kills. Everyone dies. God can send a tornado to kill a person or an army of Israelites; if a god exists, clearly he kills everyone who ever lived. It's the timing that concerns you. So from where did you derive your "right to life" stance?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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