God's Laws
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09-03-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Arguing God's law with you is like arguing jurisprudence with convicted felons. Don't take that wrongly--no offense is implied--but you are all law flaunters and lawbreakers of God's law. Being scofflaws... you scoff at God's laws.

The biggest issue I see in the last few posts is "God kills innocent people!":

1. We are going to have to define innocent. Even the State kills guilty persons.

2. We are going to have to define kills. Everyone dies. God can send a tornado to kill a person or an army of Israelites; if a god exists, clearly he kills everyone who ever lived. It's the timing that concerns you. So from where did you derive your "right to life" stance?


Don't certainly have to have a right to life stance... yet again you bring up a view that is so pointlessly good/bad. You should talk about the law & meaning of the law to felons still, there is much to actually gain FOR them and for studies. Oddly you're acting like you should give up once the crime is done yet your God refused to do that for some reason.

Which leads to another weird note, It always seemed just a flaw into the concept that God couldn't or wouldn't just completely start over. Why carry on the life after adam and eve or cain and abel. Why keep noah alive to continue the line, he was going to die anyway. Why not just start anew, you keep those few righteous like lot and put him in heaven and you begin a new species of man. who cares about what happened in the past, it doesn't matter. It's just story telling is why.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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09-03-2016, 11:28 AM
RE: God's Laws
Quote:But if you want to say atheists are moral without a Bible...
Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
Following the orders of someone else, imaginary or not, doesnt make you moral, it makes you amoral at best. To be moral you need to be a moral agent and have a moral standard, rather than being an obedient robot. Do you have such a standard?

Quote:The biggest issue I see in the last few posts is "God kills innocent people!"
Did god send the big flood?
Did every human being but Noahs bunch get drowned?
Was every other human being "guilty" of someting?


Quote:We are going to have to define innocent. Even the State kills guilty persons.
States dont kill people for thought crimes like not believing.
Not even all states kill people at all.
Killing people is immoral.
If you kill people, its immoral.
If a state kills people, its immoral.
If a god kills people, its immoral.
If it doesnt kill them but torture them for ever its even more immoral.
If it doesnt kill them but tortures them forever for a thought crime like not believing, its immoral beyond any comprehension.
Thats my moral standard.

Quote:We are going to have to define kills
There are things worse than being killed, like being tortured for ever.
How about defining that?

And you morally bancrupt piece of human shit dare to compare atheists with convicted felons?! If my humanism (respect for human life) is a felony im glad to be labeled a criminal and cant wait to burn in the same flaming pit with Hitchens et al (If it was real which it isnt). I spit on your god and i spit on you, because you despise humanity and humans. Therefore i despise you.
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09-03-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Arguing God's law with you is like arguing jurisprudence with convicted felons. Don't take that wrongly--no offense is implied--but you are all law flaunters and lawbreakers of God's law. Being scofflaws... you scoff at God's laws.

Yes. I scoff at the laws ordering rape and murder, condoning incest, adultery and polygamy. I ignore the directions on taking, keeping, beating, raping and marrying slaves.

And I am quite proud of myself.


(09-03-2016 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The biggest issue I see in the last few posts is "God kills innocent people!":

1. We are going to have to define innocent. Even the State kills guilty persons.

2. We are going to have to define kills. Everyone dies. God can send a tornado to kill a person or an army of Israelites; if a god exists, clearly he kills everyone who ever lived. It's the timing that concerns you.

I hate quoting myself, but since you insist on pretending this wasn't done:
Quote:If the flood was true, how many pregnant women died?
And their fetuses?
How many babes in arms? Toddlers?

If the story of Exodus is true, how many of Egypt's first born were babies or toddlers?

Yes, I agree with you for once. In your stories, god is much better at killing innocents.

The examples above (fetuses, babies and toddlers) would count as innocents by christian standards.

And I would say killing babies to prove a point (exodus) or because the parents pissed him off (the flood), is pretty unjust.

(09-03-2016 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So from where did you derive your "right to life" stance?

Really? The moral argument? You've sunk to that?

Morality is subjective. We, both as individuals and as a society, define and enforce our morals.

Objective morals would apply... wait for it... objectively. To man AND god. Otherwise, they would not be objective.

Looking at the character of the god you claim to worship, I return the question.

"Where do you get your morals?"

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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09-03-2016, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2016 12:30 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 12:23 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Yes. I scoff at the laws ordering rape and murder, condoning incest, adultery and polygamy. I ignore the directions on taking, keeping, beating, raping and marrying slaves.

You godless heathen. You're perfect example of that one can not be moral without gawd.

(09-03-2016 12:23 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Objective morals would apply... wait for it... objectively. To man AND god. Otherwise, they would not be objective.

It should be that way, but god is like USSR*. It always was progressive and god always is good.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-03-2016, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2016 12:46 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: God's Laws
(07-03-2016 01:46 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 10:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm debating someone on another forum who worked in corrections. He and I both realize it's not popular in prison to say you're an atheist, nor is it a winning hand for the parole board. But if you want to say atheists are moral without a Bible, you'd have to prove that morality is something real on its own. Otherwise it's just fear of punishment, and then we can say that atheists fear punishment more than others, rather than that they are more moral.

Secular morality has already been shown to be more useful in society than religious morality which really does just boil down to " I don't want to be punished by the sky daddy that created everything". If I do something wrong and I get caught I will be punished but more than that I will have hurt someone, even if I just steal something I have hurt a business and I don't want to go around hurting people or their businesses or animals for that matter. Since I have no objective biblical moral code how do you explain that? According to your logic I will have to be afraid of eternal punishment but I'm not since I don't have any evidence of any afterlife so anything I do will only effect myself and others here on Earth. God has many laws you like to reject because those were for the Israelites and not for yourself but how do you decide which laws you want to keep? You would have to use your own subjective morality to make that decision since your morality exists outside of the Bible. There, I have just proven morality is "real on it's own."

Here is a link to an article citing research on Atheist/Agnostic Children:
Raising Children Without Religion

Here is an article on secular morality:
How Morality can be Objective without God

Here is an article on religion in prison:
Atheists in Prison

I don't think it's fair to say "I talked to this corrections officer online and he said Atheists lie and just pretend to be Christian so they don't get beaten by all the actual Christians." By that logic I can say a lot of the Christians are lying and are actually Satanists, would that make any sense? Would that be fair? Even if we go by that logic and they all stopped lying and admitted they were Atheist how much would the percentage go up from 0.007%? would it go up 5%? 10%? It would still be a vast majority of Christians and Muslims in the prison system compared to Atheists and Agnostics, the article I posted also cites other factors like education level and affluence.

Q,

As someone who was a prisoner (and an open atheist) for nine years flat, I can tell you that your "corrections" friend is full of shit. There are people who will pretend to be more religious in order to try to please the (typically heavily religious) officers, or to benefit from the perks involved in religious programs, but 99% of the prisoners I met were openly religious even when there was nothing to be gained from it.

People may pretend to be (more) heavily religious, but there are few if any atheists pretending to be Christians (or whatever).

I can also tell you from firsthand experience that the more openly-religious a person in prison is (be it prisoner or officer), the more you should be afraid of what they'd be willing to do to others. Without fail, the worst predators in there walk around with Bibles in their hands, talking Jesus almost nonstop... I think it's the "well I may be a rapist but God forgives me" thing, coupled with the desire to control the minds of others around them, since rape is about power and control, not sex. (There are plenty of gays in prison, giving it away for free, so to speak, so a prisoner need not resort to rape in there unless they are a sick person.)

Sita, your point about education levels probably has as much to do with it as anything; the few atheists I did meet in my time there were all either highly-educated or extremely well-read and knowledgeable about both history and science... typically, they were in for nonviolent drug-related crimes, as I was. (Except my convictions were illegal, bunkum, and flat-out overturned on appeal...eventually, since the appellate system is so delay-ridden, it's ridiculous; nevertheless, that's what I was doing in there.) I did meet one "Robin Hood"-style thief, who thought it was okay to steal from the affluent people who were gentrifying his neighborhood, as a way of striking back at "the man", but he was atypical.

The surprising thing is that I would expect to find NO difference between believers and nonbelievers, in terms of their criminality and innate sense of morality (or, of course, as the theists assert, their "superior" moral system should make them better than us, in this regard), but we in fact find that it's the other way around.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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09-03-2016, 01:35 PM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Arguing God's law with you is like arguing jurisprudence with convicted felons. Don't take that wrongly--no offense is implied--but you are all law flaunters and lawbreakers of God's law. Being scofflaws... you scoff at God's laws.

The biggest issue I see in the last few posts is "God kills innocent people!":

1. We are going to have to define innocent. Even the State kills guilty persons.

2. We are going to have to define kills. Everyone dies. God can send a tornado to kill a person or an army of Israelites; if a god exists, clearly he kills everyone who ever lived. It's the timing that concerns you. So from where did you derive your "right to life" stance?

I think we all know what innocent means so don't play coy, I can understand a Christian having a hard time determining what is an innocent person compared to a guilty person since God thinks someone who works on the Sabbath is just as bad as someone who is a murderer. He doesn't even think a rapist is bad as long as they marry their victim. Atheists and agnostics have a more sound moral code that exists in a modern world outside of the ancient Bronze age hysterics your Bible adheres to.You have to understand we live in a world that exists after the age of reason when many philosophers laid the groundwork of what it means to be a "good" person outside the context of religion or "God will punish you if you do such and such." You need to go back and read the link I provided about morality without God, it explains it very well.

Were the first borns in Egypt guilty of something? If God needed to kill someone to free the jews from slavery why not kill the Pharoah, oh wait, he had already "hardened his heart" so he couldn't free the slaves even if he wanted to. Ok why not leave everyone alive and then simply soften the Pharoah's heart to free them and then move them over to Israel with a blink since he's all powerful? Is he only powerful when it comes to killing innocent babies and not when it comes to freeing slaves? Do you think there is any context in which a baby is not innocent?

Your God's moral standards change from one believer to the next, they seem to follow their moral guidelines, not his, so they are not objective. Some Christians think it's ok to be gay, some are gay but others believe they will be tortured forever for even "thinking" about homosexual acts. Who is right? They are both using their own subjective standards to decide what is moral, the same as you do and same as God does apparently since he says, don't kill, yet kills all he wants. You can say he controls the moment of our deaths and "plans" our lives but what about free will? If we have no control over our fate then God already knows who is guilty, who is innocent, who will go to Heaven and who will be tortured in Hell forever so everything we do is waste of time, our existence is meaningless, it's just a game to be played by a your God and his pet Satan. We're just pawns? I'd like you to actually answer these questions because they are valid and you keep ignoring them.

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09-03-2016, 04:37 PM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 12:23 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The examples above (fetuses, babies and toddlers) would count as innocents by christian standards.

I predict either no answer or the invoking of original sin.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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09-03-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: God's Laws
(02-03-2016 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 07:12 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  The number one excuse I've heard for the psychopathic old laws of the OT is that Yahweh was trying to "train" or "teach" the Israelites to live good lives, they were rules they needed before Jesus came and was brutally executed as a human blood sacrifice so now the laws don't matter...but some still do...but not all of them will get you sent to Hell if you break them. As long as Abrahimic religion exists their followers will feel a need to cherry pick because secular morality and reason just doesn't allow for the psychopathic rules to be taken seriously, if anyone did they'd be locked up as they should be.

How did you come to understand that "some laws broken cannot send you to Hell" as you put it?

In all the exploration of the world so far no one has found where the entrance to Hell is. If you know please tell us. In Vietnam we believed we had found it, but we survived.
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09-03-2016, 06:56 PM
RE: God's Laws
(02-03-2016 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How did you come to understand that "some laws broken cannot send you to Hell" as you put it?

I didn't even notice this question until just now but I want to answer it. I have been told by many believers that the only sin that God can't forgive is to deny the holy spirit or just not accept Jesus's blood sacrifice. So that means pretty much all the "old laws" that Jesus said he didn't come to change but to fulfill are null and void as you can be forgiven for all of them. It's like that joke about the little boy who prays for a bike and is told that's not how it works so he goes and steals a bike and then asks for forgiveness. Your religion is based on the premise any sin can be forgiven, the laws are pretty much useless unless you actually care about hurting people, otherwise go ahead and commit crimes and atrocities, as long as you accept Jesus in your heart and accept his brutal death as spiritual punishment for your crimes it's all good "Welcome to Heaven!"

The death of Jesus in no way teaches anyone to be good, it only says it's ok to be bad and just accept that Jesus did a good thing, God wants you to accept him and you get eternal life in a paradise. There is nothing moral about that and it only gives you license to do bad things. If we don't we suffer, we're basically being held hostage since who would choose to suffer forever? No one would so it's not really a fair choice and in the end who would want to allow an innocent to suffer for their crimes and mistakes? Only a bad person would agree to that.

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09-03-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 12:27 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 12:23 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Yes. I scoff at the laws ordering rape and murder, condoning incest, adultery and polygamy. I ignore the directions on taking, keeping, beating, raping and marrying slaves.

You godless heathen. You're perfect example of that one can not be moral without gawd.

(09-03-2016 12:23 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Objective morals would apply... wait for it... objectively. To man AND god. Otherwise, they would not be objective.

It should be that way, but god is like USSR*. It always was progressive and god always is good.

God always is good? I had the biggest problem with that phrase when I read about God ordering the wholesale slaughter of God's enemies. If He wanted them dead why not just withdraw life from them instead of having His favorite people kill them. We now know that most soldiers who have killed in battle basically never get over it psychologically, and that was what God apparently was not aware. Especially after he had "Commanded that they not kill!
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