God's Laws
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09-03-2016, 08:04 PM
RE: God's Laws
(29-02-2016 02:04 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 09:52 AM)mgoering Wrote:  When Christians are asked why there are so many laws in the OT that they don't abide by (such as wearing clothes of different fabrics) they famously say that the OT laws don't apply anymore because we have a new covenant with God.

Then why are they constantly citing the ten commandments as important God-given laws that we must follow? What makes the ten commandments unique from all of the other absurd laws in the OT?

And what does it mean when Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" ?

Christians should either obey ever last law written in the OT, to the tee (because how can you sincerely make a distinction between one and another), or completely dismiss it as the OLD covenants and not worthy of obedience. But, for God sake, stop cherry picking!

I cite the "big ten" as commandments that atheists break, not as life rules to follow. The Decalogue says to not commit adultery. I go further and will not get emotionally involved with another woman or kiss another woman. The Decalogue says to not murder, I go further and resolve to love and forgive and not have any enemies--if I can.

ALL the Mosaic Law, even the ceremonial commandments, can be summed as love Jesus Christ and love your fellow man. Atheists may do one, just not the other.

There's 613 laws in the babble Q.

Pay attention. Facepalm

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10-03-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 07:04 PM)DerFish Wrote:  God always is good?

Yes. By definition and by definition only as his depiction in Bible paints different picture.
Problem is definition overrides deeds - I've never seen or read something in which believers state that god is evil cause of flood for example.

(09-03-2016 07:04 PM)DerFish Wrote:  I had the biggest problem with that phrase when I read about God ordering the wholesale slaughter of God's enemies. If He wanted them dead why not just withdraw life from them instead of having His favorite people kill them. We now know that most soldiers who have killed in battle basically never get over it psychologically, and that was what God apparently was not aware. Especially after he had "Commanded that they not kill!

If one believe that god is good and source of morality to boot then everything can be justified. Hence the god is always good, even when he is behaving like a model for dictators.

Or god is always good simply because who want to believe in evil deity? God is blanky to keep one warm and shield from horrors of life and you wouldn't want bloodthirsty blanky.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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10-03-2016, 02:41 AM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 04:37 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I predict either no answer or the invoking of original sin.

And i cant wait to point out that the concept of original sin is immoral too.
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10-03-2016, 08:04 AM
RE: God's Laws
(04-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 01:19 PM)mgoering Wrote:  4.  If we were to stone to death our rebellious children, wouldn't we rid our families of future embarrassments and inconveniences.

5.  If we don't wear mixed fabrics, wouldn't we be less likely to make a fashion blunder?

6.  If we disallow hunchbacks, dwarfs and people with festering sores or crushed testicles to approach the altar, won't we protect the rest of us perfect people from being grossed out while we're trying to worship our loving God?

Yes, there are hundreds of laws having direct and indirect benefits for all.  And we've just listed six!  Feel free to join in.  This is fun!  Big Grin

I've addressed all three of these laws on other threads, but you can feel free to address:

loving your neighbor, even your enemies

loving justice

honoring the Sabbath

honoring God

honoring your parents

Because God and men want to know about THESE laws now, including your parents!

I love how you are such a source for unintentional comedy.
1) loving your neighbor, even your enemies - by that logic, we should love the Kim Jongs even though they kill their own people and threaten everyone's well being.

2) loving justice- justice and mercy are at odds with each other.  If you can be a repemtant christian murderer and and still get paradise where their non believing victim gets eyernal punishment, that is the antithesis of justice. Drinking Beverage

3) honoring the Sabbath - because killing someone who wants to build a fire on a certian day is beneficial to society how?

4)honoring God - how does this benefit anyone?  It appears that those who believe live pretty much the same as anyone else.

5) honoring your parents -  How is this beneficial universally?  I see in some cases, but if one finds their parents morally bankrupt or terrible people, should they be killed for it? 

I expect you to fully ignore me since you always seem to dodge better then a running back.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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15-03-2016, 09:48 AM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 10:54 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Arguing God's law with you is like arguing jurisprudence with convicted felons. Don't take that wrongly--no offense is implied--but you are all law flaunters and lawbreakers of God's law. Being scofflaws... you scoff at God's laws.

The biggest issue I see in the last few posts is "God kills innocent people!":

1. We are going to have to define innocent. Even the State kills guilty persons.

2. We are going to have to define kills. Everyone dies. God can send a tornado to kill a person or an army of Israelites; if a god exists, clearly he kills everyone who ever lived. It's the timing that concerns you. So from where did you derive your "right to life" stance?


Don't certainly have to have a right to life stance... yet again you bring up a view that is so pointlessly good/bad. You should talk about the law & meaning of the law to felons still, there is much to actually gain FOR them and for studies. Oddly you're acting like you should give up once the crime is done yet your God refused to do that for some reason.

Which leads to another weird note, It always seemed just a flaw into the concept that God couldn't or wouldn't just completely start over. Why carry on the life after adam and eve or cain and abel. Why keep noah alive to continue the line, he was going to die anyway. Why not just start anew, you keep those few righteous like lot and put him in heaven and you begin a new species of man. who cares about what happened in the past, it doesn't matter. It's just story telling is why.

Why have five kids, if you know four will live, and only three will be well behaved citizens? The answer is, of course, love.

God didn't give up on the people you wrote about and He hasn't given up on you, either. God loves you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-03-2016, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2016 09:55 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: God's Laws
(15-03-2016 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 10:54 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Don't certainly have to have a right to life stance... yet again you bring up a view that is so pointlessly good/bad. You should talk about the law & meaning of the law to felons still, there is much to actually gain FOR them and for studies. Oddly you're acting like you should give up once the crime is done yet your God refused to do that for some reason.

Which leads to another weird note, It always seemed just a flaw into the concept that God couldn't or wouldn't just completely start over. Why carry on the life after adam and eve or cain and abel. Why keep noah alive to continue the line, he was going to die anyway. Why not just start anew, you keep those few righteous like lot and put him in heaven and you begin a new species of man. who cares about what happened in the past, it doesn't matter. It's just story telling is why.

Why have five kids, if you know four will live, and only three will be well behaved citizens? The answer is, of course, love.

God didn't give up on the people you wrote about and He hasn't given up on you, either. God loves you.

That's a nonsensical notion of kids. is that you're alleged reason for having kids? well good for YOU, that's not reason for most of that biblical history why people would have 5 or even more kids. Not a reason for many today to even decide to try to have many kids.

How about the people in hell? You always seem to state things in ways that open up SO many conclusions because you say things in these allegedly thinking pockets yet there is SO much space opened up by the statements you make. Yet you seem while you're making the posts it didn't at a point cross your mind, then you respond with some alternate pattern afterwards, I don't get why all these pathways don't seem so clearly wide open to you. You come off so often like you don't believe in an omniscient god yet you think you have a tiny singular answer every response that you already just happen to know.. yet this omniscient being could Love/do anything any option of possible ways it could. "Love" wouldn't LIMIT it.

Where is the love lost if he took those "good" people, hell if he really LOVED them take the bad people into heaven anyway. Then just start anew. There's nobody losing anything(except God in God's view/plans of what came afterwards)

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 11:28 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:But if you want to say atheists are moral without a Bible...
Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
Following the orders of someone else, imaginary or not, doesnt make you moral, it makes you amoral at best. To be moral you need to be a moral agent and have a moral standard, rather than being an obedient robot. Do you have such a standard?

Quote:The biggest issue I see in the last few posts is "God kills innocent people!"
Did god send the big flood?
Did every human being but Noahs bunch get drowned?
Was every other human being "guilty" of someting?


Quote:We are going to have to define innocent. Even the State kills guilty persons.
States dont kill people for thought crimes like not believing.
Not even all states kill people at all.
Killing people is immoral.
If you kill people, its immoral.
If a state kills people, its immoral.
If a god kills people, its immoral.
If it doesnt kill them but torture them for ever its even more immoral.
If it doesnt kill them but tortures them forever for a thought crime like not believing, its immoral beyond any comprehension.
Thats my moral standard.

Quote:We are going to have to define kills
There are things worse than being killed, like being tortured for ever.
How about defining that?

And you morally bancrupt piece of human shit dare to compare atheists with convicted felons?! If my humanism (respect for human life) is a felony im glad to be labeled a criminal and cant wait to burn in the same flaming pit with Hitchens et al (If it was real which it isnt). I spit on your god and i spit on you, because you despise humanity and humans. Therefore i despise you.

Deesse:

1. See my avatar signature. You are part of the problem.

2. You use a lot of words like "morality", but without justification. How do you "know" the State executions are immoral? From what basis did you come to understand that life is a precious gift?

3. Why are you "a better person" than a convicted felon? Felons are people made in God's image. Clearly, though, you must despise such persons, and spit on them (also) since you were offended to think I might have compared an atheist to a felon--and as if NO atheists are felons! Your pride, your looking down on felons... you are part of the problem here. Repent!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-03-2016, 09:54 AM
RE: God's Laws
(09-03-2016 06:56 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How did you come to understand that "some laws broken cannot send you to Hell" as you put it?

I didn't even notice this question until just now but I want to answer it. I have been told by many believers that the only sin that God can't forgive is to deny the holy spirit or just not accept Jesus's blood sacrifice. So that means pretty much all the "old laws" that Jesus said he didn't come to change but to fulfill are null and void as you can be forgiven for all of them. It's like that joke about the little boy who prays for a bike and is told that's not how it works so he goes and steals a bike and then asks for forgiveness. Your religion is based on the premise any sin can be forgiven, the laws are pretty much useless unless you actually care about hurting people, otherwise go ahead and commit crimes and atrocities, as long as you accept Jesus in your heart and accept his brutal death as spiritual punishment for your crimes it's all good "Welcome to Heaven!"

The death of Jesus in no way teaches anyone to be good, it only says it's ok to be bad and just accept that Jesus did a good thing, God wants you to accept him and you get eternal life in a paradise. There is nothing moral about that and it only gives you license to do bad things. If we don't we suffer, we're basically being held hostage since who would choose to suffer forever? No one would so it's not really a fair choice and in the end who would want to allow an innocent to suffer for their crimes and mistakes? Only a bad person would agree to that.

You are missing two things there:

1. I didn't "agree" for Christ to die and rise for me. I only assented to the gospel after the fact. You didn't agree, either. You just have to deal with the fact now.

2. I don't buy into the "Christians sin and ask for forgiveness after" nonsense for several reasons. One, I don't have to ask for forgiveness! I'm forgiven already. Two, I have a tender conscious towards God as a convert. I wouldn't do half the things atheists do, like blaspheme God, dishonor the Sabbath, refuse to tithe, curse God, curse my fellow man, respond with vicious anger when wronged, etc. Your "charity" ought to start at home.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-03-2016, 09:56 AM
RE: God's Laws
(15-03-2016 09:50 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Why have five kids, if you know four will live, and only three will be well behaved citizens? The answer is, of course, love.

God didn't give up on the people you wrote about and He hasn't given up on you, either. God loves you.

That's a nonsensical notion of kids. is that you're alleged reason for having kids? well good for YOU, that's not reason for most of that biblical history why people would have 5 or even more kids. Not a reason for many today to even decide to try to have many kids.

How about the people in hell? You always seem to state things in ways that open up SO many conclusions because you say things in these allegedly thinking pockets yet there is SO much space opened up by the statements you make. Yet you seem while you're making the posts it didn't at a point cross your mind, then you respond with some alternate pattern afterwards, I don't get why all these pathways don't seem so clearly wide open to you.

Love is a "nonsense" reason for bearing, then raising, children? I don't believe you are being serious.

What is the problem with people in Hell? I don't understand. I've thought about this one a lot. No one is in Hell by accident or because they didn't hear about Jesus. People are in Hell or Heaven solely by choice. God makes no mistakes there, or anywhere. What is your issue?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-03-2016, 10:16 AM
RE: God's Laws
(15-03-2016 09:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 09:50 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That's a nonsensical notion of kids. is that you're alleged reason for having kids? well good for YOU, that's not reason for most of that biblical history why people would have 5 or even more kids. Not a reason for many today to even decide to try to have many kids.

How about the people in hell? You always seem to state things in ways that open up SO many conclusions because you say things in these allegedly thinking pockets yet there is SO much space opened up by the statements you make. Yet you seem while you're making the posts it didn't at a point cross your mind, then you respond with some alternate pattern afterwards, I don't get why all these pathways don't seem so clearly wide open to you.

Love is a "nonsense" reason for bearing, then raising, children? I don't believe you are being serious.

What is the problem with people in Hell? I don't understand. I've thought about this one a lot. No one is in Hell by accident or because they didn't hear about Jesus. People are in Hell or Heaven solely by choice. God makes no mistakes there, or anywhere. What is your issue?

You know you stated for having multiple while knowing one will die.. it's different than this right? That, the point and purpose of what you said in the 1st point is not done out of love no. Do you know anything outside the bible about social history of why people did x or y? Even today, people with the potential of death of a kid will have more. That's a social norm kinda thing. In areas where death of children, stillbirths, etc. is high... people have more children. There are multiple factors, love really isn't the biggest. The reasons are generally are still working/farming benefits or the more chances for a prodigy of yours to aid you. The reasons you have a kid in general, that's love, that's not the reasons you have many kids when you know its likely a couple will die though.

Do you not get when you make a statement if you alter it you are making different statements and they might mean two different things all together, even if they're similar? It seems you lack the grasp of what you say when you say it. CONSTANTLY.

Do you honestly think the having 5 kids knowing 4 will survive is the same as simple saying bearing and raising children?

Because that's how you come across via this response. As someone who ignores his own statements to just make counter statements to no end.

So did god give up on these people yet in hell? He didn't make a "mistake" yet he gave up on them? Then God wanted to have that... and he easily could of just started over at any point. Well those people if they're punished never asked to exist. That was gods doing in god allowing humans to exist flawed because he loves them so much he couldn't start over, despite him being omniscient and knowing there would continue to become people tortured like this. but he loves them so it's their fault they exist despite never asking to exist or never asking for jesus to be their sacrifice.(A point you just said is how we are) we are not "asking" for this yet apparently deserve to be punished to your view of this whole situation... for simply existing and not think that people who use weak logical reasoning are right. Thankfully, unlike many, I can be in a point where information has spread around enough that is clear as day describing how human bodies and chemistry works, so I don't have any fears or believes in these things. It's so much better knowing there aren't these millions of tortured souls instead just fallen forgotten humans who's legacies were whipped away after a couple generations past them each for the most part.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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