God's Laws
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16-03-2016, 09:06 AM
RE: God's Laws
(15-03-2016 11:08 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 09:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Deesse:

1. See my avatar signature. You are part of the problem.

2. You use a lot of words like "morality", but without justification. How do you "know" the State executions are immoral? From what basis did you come to understand that life is a precious gift?

3. Why are you "a better person" than a convicted felon? Felons are people made in God's image. Clearly, though, you must despise such persons, and spit on them (also) since you were offended to think I might have compared an atheist to a felon--and as if NO atheists are felons! Your pride, your looking down on felons... you are part of the problem here. Repent!

You failed to adress a single question of mine. Dont try to weasel out:

Did every drowned person save Noahs family deserve to drown?
Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
Is killing immoral, or does it depend on who does the killing?
Is infinite punishment for a finite crime just and moral?
What is your moral standard (not the one of someone else you blindly follow)?

And please dont give me shit like
Quote:You use a lot of words like "morality", but without justification
before you have laid out your moral standard by answering my -simple- questions. If you do have a moral standard these questions should be fairly easy to answer.

How is answering pop questions "laying out my moral standard," my moral objectives? You are late to the party--as well as a bit rude. I've addressed this elsewhere, but will address it again--just for you--because it is moral to do so...?

Did every drowned person save Noahs family deserve to drown?
**Drowning is a means of death. All persons deserve to die. All have sinned. Noah's family deserved to drown as well. They found redemption. Would you like redemption?

Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
**No. But I have something you have, a conscience, which is responsive to the promptings of God. Even an atheist has a conscience that God interacts with.

Is killing immoral, or does it depend on who does the killing?
**Here is a big problem for the atheist. The Bible states that state-sanctioned execution, of say, murderers, is killing that isn't murder. I have no problem with that. Many people who aren't evangelical don't, either. But we must talk at some point about whether you have some kind of socially-constructed morals, because evolution informs us both that survivability of the general population is enhanced when you kill killers!

Is infinite punishment for a finite crime just and moral?
**Absolutely not. However, Hell is eternal punishment that is NOT infinite. I've had a headache before that wasn't infinite in pain. But a headache can last a short or long time.

What is your moral standard (not the one of someone else you blindly follow)?
**I had the same standards you had before I was a believer, I'm sure. Don't hurt other people, which is less than treat people as you'd like to be treated. Do what makes you feel good. Live and let live. Now I say, live and let di-eeeeeeee. Sorry, a bit of Sir Paul slipped in, there. I know where my moral standards come from, and it's not good enough for me to say, "Evolution says do whatever I must to survive, but I won't kill people to get ahead because society has constructed so that blah-blah-blah..."!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-03-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: God's Laws
Quote: You say you didn't "agree" for Christ's death to magically cleanse you of your sins so you can go to Heaven even though you may have done horrible things in your life yet you "assented".

You didn’t follow my actual response to you. NO ONE agreed for Christ to die to begin, even the apostles asked Him to not die on the cross.

Quote: As you can see the word "assent" and "agree" are synonym of each other and basically mean the same thing so what I asserted originally is true, you "agreed" to be held hostage and told if you don't want to be tortured forever you will assent or agree that this human blood sacrifice was a moral and righteous act carried out to clear you of sins so you can be rewarded with eternity in a paradise. How is that moral? You probably won't answer but it's not moral, it's being told you have no real choice anyway, it's already happened, a human was brutally murdered and bled out so you can be fixed because you are an awful broken thing.

If Christ is guilty of sin, what you write above is true. However, He was innocent. You need a cell transfusion to heal of a disease, someone who loves you gives you vital cells until they die because they love you. Love is above a lot of things—in this case and Jesus’s, it’s about love trumping your concepts of morality. I mean, they are concepts, unless you can prove moral absolutes exist, right?

Quote: You say you are "forgiven already" so you don't have to ask for it so what's the point of trying to do good things?

Love! I don’t witness TO go to Heaven, I’m going. I witness the love of Christ because I love people.

What’s your motivation to do good? Fear of punishment or love? Fear of Hell or love? I’m sure it’s the same as mine. Love never fails!

Quote: Blaspheme God: How is this a bad thing? We don't believe any God/s exist so why would we care about blaspheming one? Also is God so insecure and sensitive that he can't handle a little bit of disrespect, especially considering all the terrible things he's supposedly done? Pretty sure he can handle a bit of criticism especially since he's fictional character anyway.

Jesus Himself said you can say awful things about Him and it’s fine. What you cannot do is reject the Spirit of God when you are called, interacted with. Do that and you have no chance in this world or the next. You are correct here.

Quote: Dishonor the Sabbath: Why is it such a big deal to work on a certain day of the week? Are police officers dishonoring the Sabbath when they work on Saturdays? Should all hospitals close down too? What if an emergency happens when someone is relaxing with their family?

Refuse to tithe: Again we are atheists, why would we want to give money to your religion or your God? Why does God need your money anyway? Is he in really bad debt?

Curse God: Once again, we don't think your God exists and also "cursing" him is pretty much the same as blaspheming so you're repeating yourself here.

Curse fellow man: First of all Christians curse their fellow man all the time, I'm not sure about you but if you honestly believe many of us will go to Hell for simply not believing in Jesus you are cursing us, even if you admit we are good people it's even worse. Secondly, what is a "curse" anyway? Just words? Ok humans can handle some bad words from time to time, it seems it's your God and his zombie kid are the ones who can't handle it.

Well, Jesus is your fellow man and you are cursing Him as a “zombie kid” and so on, so you are guilty IMHO. Here’s my real point—absolute moral standards exist. According to the ones I see in the scriptures, atheists aren’t too “good”.

Regardless, no atheist is perfect. Only perfect people can be in Heaven, because if you and I hurt one another in Heaven, it isn’t a utopia. You have to be perfect 24/7 to be in Heaven. I’m not yet perfect, but because I trust Jesus Christ, who died a horrible death by torture for me, and rose from the dead, when the time comes, because I’ve trusted Him, I get His perfection to change places with my imperfection. Great news!

Quote: Respond with vicious anger when wronged: I don't have much of a temper, you don't know if any of the atheists here have ever responded with "vicious anger" when wronged so you are assuming but I know many Christians who have. I won't judge all of them for their actions. Also I hate to keep repeating myself from previous posts but your God has reacted in vicious anger many times apparently, he drowned every land animal once, every single one, save a few that were put on a big boat. He's a pretty terrible guy when's a mad.

Why won’t you judge Christians when they wrong you? Why is that your moral absolute standard? Because if it isn’t absolute, it’s subject to change, and you might—even—judge me. Again, you are a good person, I can see that right here, but you’re not perfect. You need perfection to be saved.

Quote: I'd like you to actually answer these questions I've asked here, you probably won't but you know everything you pointed out makes no sense, you an do much better than this because pretty much everything you assert is either logically wrong/immoral or based on the Bible which is a book we don't think is based on the truth so you need to use something else we can agree is factually relevant.

You bet! Let’s put the Bible aside for the moment and use deductive logic.

1. If there is a utopia 24/7, every member in it must contribute to the utopia rather than tear it down.

2. No one is perfect.

3. No one is going to be part of the utopia without a radical, permanent change.

Now use logic—not the Bible—not Christopher Hitches quotes—to show me where my syllogism is off.

Thanks!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-03-2016, 10:58 AM
RE: God's Laws
(16-03-2016 09:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 10:16 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You know you stated for having multiple while knowing one will die.. it's different than this right? That, the point and purpose of what you said in the 1st point is not done out of love no. Do you know anything outside the bible about social history of why people did x or y? Even today, people with the potential of death of a kid will have more. That's a social norm kinda thing. In areas where death of children, stillbirths, etc. is high... people have more children. There are multiple factors, love really isn't the biggest. The reasons are generally are still working/farming benefits or the more chances for a prodigy of yours to aid you. The reasons you have a kid in general, that's love, that's not the reasons you have many kids when you know its likely a couple will die though.

Do you not get when you make a statement if you alter it you are making different statements and they might mean two different things all together, even if they're similar? It seems you lack the grasp of what you say when you say it. CONSTANTLY.

Do you honestly think the having 5 kids knowing 4 will survive is the same as simple saying bearing and raising children?

Because that's how you come across via this response. As someone who ignores his own statements to just make counter statements to no end.

So did god give up on these people yet in hell? He didn't make a "mistake" yet he gave up on them? Then God wanted to have that... and he easily could of just started over at any point. Well those people if they're punished never asked to exist. That was gods doing in god allowing humans to exist flawed because he loves them so much he couldn't start over, despite him being omniscient and knowing there would continue to become people tortured like this. but he loves them so it's their fault they exist despite never asking to exist or never asking for jesus to be their sacrifice.(A point you just said is how we are) we are not "asking" for this yet apparently deserve to be punished to your view of this whole situation... for simply existing and not think that people who use weak logical reasoning are right. Thankfully, unlike many, I can be in a point where information has spread around enough that is clear as day describing how human bodies and chemistry works, so I don't have any fears or believes in these things. It's so much better knowing there aren't these millions of tortured souls instead just fallen forgotten humans who's legacies were whipped away after a couple generations past them each for the most part.

I didn't have children for social standards or social pressures. I love my children. I know atheists love their children too, and not just in chemical bonding ways... from the "heart".

No, people in Hell didn't ask to exist. But they are self-determinant and can get out of Hell proactively. You may not have asked to have been enslaved. But if offered the opportunity to escape... the Bible explains that we in bondage to sin are enslaved by sin, but have a firm way of escape.

You are not your description of having multiple kids because you "know" one will die. You're just a person in a far better off society than the majority of medcine lacking cultures that existed despite direct contact where god could of helped told them that instead of laws that helped noone as they were already written out in surrounding cultures beforehand. Yes, love comes from the brain Qness.

And if you were to embrace the reality that the bible says that calvinists get, those people in hell really didn't have a choice. You're just on a powertrip to desire this mindset thinking people do, but really this "freewill" isn't something you actually have. Neither do others, through scientific means as we are seemingly just as automatic as any other species and that's what seems to bother free will believing religionists.

But still you never responded to anything outside of saying "love". Why didn't god start over apart form the "jesus" scenario you descripe as love. Instead actually kill all humans in the flood & start over and love that way. It's still LOVE to start over and LOVE for noah & his sons to go to heaven and Love to have perfect beings in a utopia again... it was LOVE for adam and Eve. Love can be used ANY possible way at all by an omnipotent being.

What makes YOU think you KNOW gods limit and gods reasons and actual actions?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-03-2016, 12:15 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2016 12:52 PM by Deesse23.)
RE: God's Laws
(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ..as well as a bit rude
You saying that atheists cant be moral without your little book, completely fail to lay out your moral standard when asked, but i am the rude one. How classy!

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Did every drowned person save Noahs family deserve to drown?
**Drowning is a means of death. All persons deserve to die. All have sinned.
How do you know all have sinned? What sin(s) where those people guilty of, to deserve death?

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
**No.
Why not?

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But I have something you have, a conscience, which is responsive to the promptings of God. Even an atheist has a conscience that God interacts with.
Thats irrelevant as well as a wild ass assertion and will be dismissed if you cant offer anything to substantiate that.

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is killing immoral, or does it depend on who does the killing?
**Here is a big problem for the atheist. The Bible states that state-sanctioned execution, of say, murderers, is killing that isn't murder. I have no problem with that. Many people who aren't evangelical don't, either.
I wasnt asking what kind of killing (execution) can be sanctioned, but if killing can be sanctioned depending on who does the killing.

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But we must talk at some point about whether you have some kind of socially-constructed morals, because evolution informs us both that survivability of the general population is enhanced when you kill killers!
No we dont, because im not interested in what you think evolution informs us to do. I am interested in what your moral standard is.

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is infinite punishment for a finite crime just and moral?
**Absolutely not. However, Hell is eternal punishment that is NOT infinite.
Why not?
Please explain the difference between "eternal" and "infinite". Which part of "eternal" is finite?

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What is your moral standard (not the one of someone else you blindly follow)?
**I had the same standards you had before I was a believer, I'm sure. Don't hurt other people, which is less than treat people as you'd like to be treated. Do what makes you feel good. Live and let live. Now I say, live and let di-eeeeeeee. Sorry, a bit of Sir Paul slipped in, there. I know where my moral standards come from, and it's not good enough for me to say, "Evolution says do whatever I must to survive, but I won't kill people to get ahead because society has constructed so that blah-blah-blah..."!
I am not interested in what standards you had as a non-believer. I am also not interested in what you think evolution says (see above). I am interested in your moral standard as a believer. You say "I know where my moral standards come from", so please tell. What is your moral standard? Where does it come from?

I am still waiting.
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16-03-2016, 12:16 PM
RE: God's Laws
(16-03-2016 09:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote: You say you didn't "agree" for Christ's death to magically cleanse you of your sins so you can go to Heaven even though you may have done horrible things in your life yet you "assented".

You didn’t follow my actual response to you. NO ONE agreed for Christ to die to begin, even the apostles asked Him to not die on the cross.

Quote: As you can see the word "assent" and "agree" are synonym of each other and basically mean the same thing so what I asserted originally is true, you "agreed" to be held hostage and told if you don't want to be tortured forever you will assent or agree that this human blood sacrifice was a moral and righteous act carried out to clear you of sins so you can be rewarded with eternity in a paradise. How is that moral? You probably won't answer but it's not moral, it's being told you have no real choice anyway, it's already happened, a human was brutally murdered and bled out so you can be fixed because you are an awful broken thing.

If Christ is guilty of sin, what you write above is true. However, He was innocent. You need a cell transfusion to heal of a disease, someone who loves you gives you vital cells until they die because they love you. Love is above a lot of things—in this case and Jesus’s, it’s about love trumping your concepts of morality. I mean, they are concepts, unless you can prove moral absolutes exist, right?

Quote: You say you are "forgiven already" so you don't have to ask for it so what's the point of trying to do good things?

Love! I don’t witness TO go to Heaven, I’m going. I witness the love of Christ because I love people.

What’s your motivation to do good? Fear of punishment or love? Fear of Hell or love? I’m sure it’s the same as mine. Love never fails!

Quote: Blaspheme God: How is this a bad thing? We don't believe any God/s exist so why would we care about blaspheming one? Also is God so insecure and sensitive that he can't handle a little bit of disrespect, especially considering all the terrible things he's supposedly done? Pretty sure he can handle a bit of criticism especially since he's fictional character anyway.

Jesus Himself said you can say awful things about Him and it’s fine. What you cannot do is reject the Spirit of God when you are called, interacted with. Do that and you have no chance in this world or the next. You are correct here.

Quote: Dishonor the Sabbath: Why is it such a big deal to work on a certain day of the week? Are police officers dishonoring the Sabbath when they work on Saturdays? Should all hospitals close down too? What if an emergency happens when someone is relaxing with their family?

Refuse to tithe: Again we are atheists, why would we want to give money to your religion or your God? Why does God need your money anyway? Is he in really bad debt?

Curse God: Once again, we don't think your God exists and also "cursing" him is pretty much the same as blaspheming so you're repeating yourself here.

Curse fellow man: First of all Christians curse their fellow man all the time, I'm not sure about you but if you honestly believe many of us will go to Hell for simply not believing in Jesus you are cursing us, even if you admit we are good people it's even worse. Secondly, what is a "curse" anyway? Just words? Ok humans can handle some bad words from time to time, it seems it's your God and his zombie kid are the ones who can't handle it.

Well, Jesus is your fellow man and you are cursing Him as a “zombie kid” and so on, so you are guilty IMHO. Here’s my real point—absolute moral standards exist. According to the ones I see in the scriptures, atheists aren’t too “good”.

Regardless, no atheist is perfect. Only perfect people can be in Heaven, because if you and I hurt one another in Heaven, it isn’t a utopia. You have to be perfect 24/7 to be in Heaven. I’m not yet perfect, but because I trust Jesus Christ, who died a horrible death by torture for me, and rose from the dead, when the time comes, because I’ve trusted Him, I get His perfection to change places with my imperfection. Great news!

Quote: Respond with vicious anger when wronged: I don't have much of a temper, you don't know if any of the atheists here have ever responded with "vicious anger" when wronged so you are assuming but I know many Christians who have. I won't judge all of them for their actions. Also I hate to keep repeating myself from previous posts but your God has reacted in vicious anger many times apparently, he drowned every land animal once, every single one, save a few that were put on a big boat. He's a pretty terrible guy when's a mad.

Why won’t you judge Christians when they wrong you? Why is that your moral absolute standard? Because if it isn’t absolute, it’s subject to change, and you might—even—judge me. Again, you are a good person, I can see that right here, but you’re not perfect. You need perfection to be saved.

Quote: I'd like you to actually answer these questions I've asked here, you probably won't but you know everything you pointed out makes no sense, you an do much better than this because pretty much everything you assert is either logically wrong/immoral or based on the Bible which is a book we don't think is based on the truth so you need to use something else we can agree is factually relevant.

You bet! Let’s put the Bible aside for the moment and use deductive logic.

1. If there is a utopia 24/7, every member in it must contribute to the utopia rather than tear it down.

2. No one is perfect.

3. No one is going to be part of the utopia without a radical, permanent change.

Now use logic—not the Bible—not Christopher Hitches quotes—to show me where my syllogism is off.

Thanks!

It doesn't matter if no one wanted Christ to die but he apparently wanted to and his father wanted him to , it doesn't matter in the end it was a human blood sacrifice and it's still wrong. Do you think blood sacrifices are correct? For the record saying that he was an innocent doesn't make it any better, it only makes much much worse and he's an immortal being, his "death" is meaningless if he can never truly die and if he came back to life anyway.

I don't understand why you keep talking about love so much, what is so loving about telling someone "Hey I love you and want you to be happy forever, but you have to accept that you are a broken sinful being and only I can give you happiness,you can't find it or earn it on your own. If you refuse my help you will be tortured forever, now choose of your own free will." First of all if this being loved you it would never allow you to suffer, especially for an eternity and especially since the choice is totally based on faith since this being doesn't even have the courtesy to make itself known to you in any tangible way and relies on an old morally questionable book to make it's case.

You say once you die you will become "perfect", whatever that even means but wouldn't you lose any sense of who you are now? It seems you will be effectively wiped clean and brain-washed or lobotomized and just be a totally God loving zombie that wanders around all day being whatever God/Jesus wants you to be. I'd rather have my own mind and thoughts that may include imperfections than be totally controlled and "perfect". That's not great news, it sounds like you're going to be joining some kind of cult forever but it's ok because you'll be perfect and happy. Happiness is only a good thing in relation to sadness and challenges you are faced, if you're just happy all time you'll be bored and being perfect doesn't sound like fun since overcoming your weaknesses is a part of life and it's a good thing.

You do not need moral absolutes to be a good person, you have no moral absolutes. Even going by the Bible what is it that makes it so moral? Are God's laws good because he is good or because he's God and he says so? What moral standard do you use to determine which laws you want to follow? The Bible clearly states in several places that slavery is totally fine in certain cases, do you think enslaving the foreigners in your land is a good thing? Would you own slaves if it were legal? If not why? The Bible in it's inerrancy and by God's clear law says it's totally fine, so using your logic of moral objectivity what would be the right thing?

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16-03-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: God's Laws
Quote:Here’s my real point—absolute moral standards exist. According to the ones I see in the scriptures....

The scriptures contain no standards, but pronouncements without any underlying framework.
*Thou shalt not fart* is a pronouncement, not a moral standard.
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16-03-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: God's Laws
Quote:What is the problem with people in Hell?
Eternity is a fucking long time for.....not believing during a lifetime?

Quote: I don't understand
Yeah, thats a major problem, i agree. But we are trying to help you as much as we can.

Quote:I've thought about this one a lot.
Quality > Quantity


Quote:No one is in Hell by accident
Correct. Its because someone created hell in the first place.

Quote:People are in Hell or Heaven solely by choice
If i put a gun at your head, and say "believe or i have to pull the trigger", am i giving you a choice, or am i trying to coerce you? No one choses to go to hell.
As an Atheist i cant choose to believe what i am not convinced of. Yet, by your gods rule, i will go to hell because i didnt choose to (dishonestly) believe.
Your god made the rules, god created hell, god doesnt give me good reasons to believe in him, and he knew all this in advance.
But i am accountable?

Quote:God makes no mistakes there, or anywhere
Then, why was the flood necessary?
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16-03-2016, 01:52 PM
RE: God's Laws
(16-03-2016 12:50 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Then, why was the flood necessary?

It's obvious. Cause humans disobeyed their Lord, God.


You could ask if killing was necessary. It was because god was forced to do something to regain street creed and in those times you couldn't go easy on the sinners. No genocide equal no respect among brothers.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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16-03-2016, 02:04 PM
RE: God's Laws
(16-03-2016 12:15 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  How do you know all have sinned? What sin(s) where those people guilty of, to deserve death?

It's a combination of the concepts of original sin (which is sort of a get-out-of-jail-free card for the Christian god, since everyone comes pre-condemned and so he's justified in anything he does) and an exceptionally disturbing belief that it is impossible to avoid sinning at least a little bit in your life, and even the slightest sin is worthy of death.

Because God is just so perfect that even the slightest sin is an unforgivable affront to his perfection, don't you know. The fact that he forgives you anyway isn't at all similar to abusive relationship patterns, but proof of his illimitable goodness and mercy.

But ultimately, this whole discussion is rather pointless, as you are attempting to argue the properties of a fictional character with its author. Until such time as the existence of Q's god is established, there's no point in arguing its moral standing, as Q can simply make up anything he likes.

The point about atheists not needing a god to have morals is an important one, though. Too bad he's just sidestepping the issue, as he does in every thread that it comes up in.

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17-03-2016, 11:41 PM
RE: God's Laws
Hello Q. Its nice to read some of your posts again.

I was wondering what you meant when you said "All persons deserve to die." What do you mean?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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