God's Moral Obligations
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04-02-2018, 05:49 PM
God's Moral Obligations
Does God have moral obligations to us, his creation? Many Christians seem to hold that God does not, they have bought into the idea of divine command theory. This seems to me to be self defeating as far as evidence against God goes.

If God is good, perfectly good as Christian claim (and others) then God would be morally obligated to treat us, his creations well. I do not see how theists can divorce God's supposed goodness from moral obligation.

Theists claim that God is the source of objective morality. Then to claim God has no moral obligations to us, his creation divorces moral obligation from the concept of objective morality. That implies that objective morality is not what the theists think it is, and demands a question, just what is objective morality?

Then this all drags in other ramifications, for example, the hiddeness of God. Lack of truly convincing revelations. Lack of real evidence and inarguable supplied by God for his existence.

Just another set of reasons I think the God concept is incoherent and self contradictory.
The main thought here I want to emphasize is the claim that God is the source of objective morality and the denial God has moral obligations to us, his creation.

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

Cheerful Charlie
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04-02-2018, 07:31 PM
RE: God's Moral Obligations
Who's to say Herpes, tsunamis, Alzheimer's, earthquakes, mosquitoes and severe mental retardation aren't God's gift to us all? Teaches us to be better people, I'm sure of it.

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04-02-2018, 07:45 PM
RE: God's Moral Obligations
William Craig Lane argues that God has no moral obligations to us. God created the world and that's enough. God then is sort of like jellyfish who drops her eggs and does nothing more for them. Again, to me, this opens up the question, just what is this objective morality these theists claim exists, and what does it consist of and not consist of? If God is not subject to objective morality, is it really objective morality? It's a phrase they toss out without any real examination of what this claim means and does not mean.

What we seem to have here is a Universe without a God that actively exercises obvious moral leadership, and a lot of bad theology meant to preserve appearances, to explain that obvious failure away.

It all becomes a game. Involved with this is a lot of baggage. Simplicity of God for example. And pre-suppositionalism. If all morality comes from God, why is God's morality so like no God at all?

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

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04-02-2018, 07:58 PM
RE: God's Moral Obligations
Is God a cosmic jellyfish, who drops her eggs and then is swept away by the cosmic ocean currents? With not a care for her young, or ability to do anything for them? Or is God and all powerful and morally perfect God? It appears at best, A Great Cosmic Jellyfish.

Is this a colorful enough bit of polemic for anybody here?

A good polemic is often an invitation to sensible examination of the issues.

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

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04-02-2018, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2018 10:57 PM by Cheerful Charlie.)
RE: God's Moral Obligations
A good question here is, just what do Christians mean by absolute morality? This is of course part of the ancient Euthyphro problem of Socrates. But deeper still it is about definitions. What is moral? What is moral for God? The Bible for example claims God is just, merciful and compassionate. But a God not tied to any obvious moral obligation is none of these things. So it is a problem for revelation based Christianty.

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

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04-02-2018, 09:36 PM
RE: God's Moral Obligations
(04-02-2018 05:49 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Does God have moral obligations to us, his creation? Many Christians seem to hold that God does not, they have bought into the idea of divine command theory. This seems to me to be self defeating as far as evidence against God goes.

If God is good, perfectly good as Christian claim (and others) then God would be morally obligated to treat us, his creations well. I do not see how theists can divorce God's supposed goodness from moral obligation.

Theists claim that God is the source of objective morality. Then to claim God has no moral obligations to us, his creation divorces moral obligation from the concept of objective morality. That implies that objective morality is not what the theists think it is, and demands a question, just what is objective morality?

Then this all drags in other ramifications, for example, the hiddeness of God. Lack of truly convincing revelations. Lack of real evidence and inarguable supplied by God for his existence.

Just another set of reasons I think the God concept is incoherent and self contradictory.
The main thought here I want to emphasize is the claim that God is the source of objective morality and the denial God has moral obligations to us, his creation.

In Matthew 15:32-39 Jesus fed thousands of people out of compassion for them.

In Mark 8: 1-10 this story is repeated.

So feeding hungry people is clearly part of what this god describes as compassionate.

So he has a moral obligation under god's own definition of compassion and good to feed hungry people.

You can also find references to Jesus healing people for the same reason.

So under the bible's own definition of compassion, god has an obligation to feed the hungry and heal the sick.

So let the BS apologism begin!

And apparently, listening to various players bloviating after the Superbowl, allowing the Eagles to win is part of god's will too. Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-02-2018, 03:32 AM
RE: God's Moral Obligations
As far as I'm concerned, a creator absolutely has a moral responsibility for its creation. The fact that it is in a position where no one else can challenge it doesn't change that. To try and justify and worship this creator is Stockholm Syndrome. If it actually was good and caring towards us, people wouldn't need to claim it has no responsibility. It would already be fulfilling it, evidently.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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05-02-2018, 06:31 PM
RE: God's Moral Obligations
Cats are famously good mothers. Cats obviously love their kittens, care for them try to protect them from harm and try to make sure they are safe and well fed. A God who supposedly has no moral obligations to us and doesn't seem to do anything like these things I listed above does not measure up to a simple cat.

Cat or jellyfish?

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

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05-02-2018, 06:43 PM
RE: God's Moral Obligations
(05-02-2018 03:32 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  As far as I'm concerned, a creator absolutely has a moral responsibility for its creation. The fact that it is in a position where no one else can challenge it doesn't change that. To try and justify and worship this creator is Stockholm Syndrome. If it actually was good and caring towards us, people wouldn't need to claim it has no responsibility. It would already be fulfilling it, evidently.

The problem is that this Universe does not resemble a Universe with a merciful, just, compassionate caring God who loves us. How to reconcile this fact with the hypothesis that God exists? By abandoning any claim God has any moral obligation. Again, William Craig lane explicitly makes this claim.

But then it drives Christians off of the claim God is just and merciful et al. Now the problem for apologists is how to pretend this is not incoherent and contradictory. Many Christians at this point seem to like Romans 9, God the Great Potter who can make some vessels honored, and some to dishonor, at his godly whim.

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

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05-02-2018, 07:37 PM
RE: God's Moral Obligations
(05-02-2018 06:43 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(05-02-2018 03:32 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  As far as I'm concerned, a creator absolutely has a moral responsibility for its creation. The fact that it is in a position where no one else can challenge it doesn't change that. To try and justify and worship this creator is Stockholm Syndrome. If it actually was good and caring towards us, people wouldn't need to claim it has no responsibility. It would already be fulfilling it, evidently.

The problem is that this Universe does not resemble a Universe with a merciful, just, compassionate caring God who loves us. How to reconcile this fact with the hypothesis that God exists? By abandoning any claim God has any moral obligation. Again, William Craig lane explicitly makes this claim.

But then it drives Christians off of the claim God is just and merciful et al. Now the problem for apologists is how to pretend this is not incoherent and contradictory. Many Christians at this point seem to like Romans 9, God the Great Potter who can make some vessels honored, and some to dishonor, at his godly whim.

The whole house of cards starts collapsing at that point. The concept of atonement is that of human choice and god abiding by the lengthy rule sets and constraints imposed by atonement. If god simply does whatever, then atonement is a worthless concept. Leave it to Paul to completely undermine his atonement concept with his god's capricious nature.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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