God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
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11-02-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(11-02-2013 11:12 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Can God create a rock so big even He cannot heft it?

...Is akin to asking whether God's power to make rocks can defeat God's power to lift rocks. God is One, not two things being compared, so that's a nonsense argument.

You might as well ask if your dad can beat up your dad.

Next!
Or maybe ask whether my dad can make a snowball so big he cannot lift it, which would be a much better analogy of the paradox in question.

The answer is yes, he can, because making massive snowballs is easy. Oh look, it makes sense after all.

If we changed it to making a snowball out of whatever amount of already existing snow is required would that make you happier?
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11-02-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(11-02-2013 08:18 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(10-02-2013 08:52 PM)hedgehog648 Wrote:  You are wrong to suggest we are imposing limits on the omnipotent thing. The paradox shows that omnipotence by the laws of logic automatically imposes limits on itself, and hence makes no sense.

Which like Chas said, can only lead to special pleading by the theist if they wish to continue claiming omnipotence.

Isn't the supposed ability to manipulate and change the state of any part of the universe throughout space and time sufficient to use the term "omnipotent"? Isn't it "all powerful", at least in terms of the universe itself? You are choosing a self-contradictory version of omnipotence that I don't think is supported by religious doctrine or documents. In doing so you disprove a strawman version of omnipotence rather than the omnipotence claimed by theists.

That is, unless you can find significant theist groups claiming your self-contradictory version of omnipotence. Then yes, you would have disproven their god.

Otherwise, if this is not intended as a serious argument then that took is ok so long as you aren't claiming it as serious.
No. All powerful means all powerful. If you want to say a god is all powerful within a given set of conditions then that's fine - the theist would still have to prove it but the paradox wouldn't apply if they did make that caveat.

But lets reword the paradox to have the same meaning but in the context you are describing:

Can God manipulate space/time in such a permanent way so as to prevent himself from manipulating it any further in any way?

If yes, then he is not omnipotent with regard to manipulating space/time.
If no, then he is not omnipotent with regard to manipulating space/time.

Even in this set of conditions, omnipotence still is not logically feasible.
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11-02-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
[Poe]

Going back to the rock (I didn't read all the backthread), if God were to assemble all of the matter in the universe into a single rock, it would be too massive to lift. Not because there was too much mass in it, but because there would be nothing to lift it OFF of. Lifting would essentially have been rendered meaningless.

Similarly, God could alter space-time such that time no longer existed, everything was frozen, and time itself was meaningless. No future change would be possible, because the future would no longer exist.

In both cases, God, while currently omnipotent, could choose (as part of His omnipotence) to surrender omnipotence. Once this is done, there is something God cannot do. That God could choose to become non-omnipotent is not a sign that God is not presently omnipotent, but rather necessarily an element of His current omnipotence. (Some say that God has already done this in regard to free will.)

[/Poe]

BTW, does my tagging the above as Poeness make it less Poe-y or more?

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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11-02-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:Or maybe ask whether my dad can make a snowball so big he cannot lift it, which would be a much better analogy of the paradox in question.

The answer is yes, he can, because making massive snowballs is easy. Oh look, it makes sense after all.

If we changed it to making a snowball out of whatever amount of already existing snow is required would that make you happier?
No, since it would be a total distortion of the original (BS!) thread. A snowball is assembled from an existing snowfall. A great mass of weight that is made from atomic elements means Jesus assembled them as a mass in space. He already "lifted" all of the rock to make it in the first place! Stupid "contradiction"!
You'd all be on much safer ground to talk about the contradictions between God's revealed will and man's free will, or something more intelligent than "rocks". Smile
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11-02-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(11-02-2013 02:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Or maybe ask whether my dad can make a snowball so big he cannot lift it, which would be a much better analogy of the paradox in question.

The answer is yes, he can, because making massive snowballs is easy. Oh look, it makes sense after all.

If we changed it to making a snowball out of whatever amount of already existing snow is required would that make you happier?
No, since it would be a total distortion of the original (BS!) thread. A snowball is assembled from an existing snowfall. A great mass of weight that is made from atomic elements means Jesus assembled them as a mass in space. He already "lifted" all of the rock to make it in the first place! Stupid "contradiction"!
You'd all be on much safer ground to talk about the contradictions between God's revealed will and man's free will, or something more intelligent than "rocks". Smile
It's not about the rocks.

It's about the logical contradiction of omnipotence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-02-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
What a very interesting idea you put forth.

So.. you are saying Jewbus couldn't poof the ready made snowball into existence, as It apparently did with everything else?

That's pretty limiting for an all powerful being.

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11-02-2013, 03:15 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:It's about the logical contradiction of omnipotence.
I don't get the logical contradiction of omnipotence, and I'm sincerely asking for you to explain, because I've heard a lot of whiney children tell me God's omnipotence leads to fatalism about eternity besides excusing all their sin. THAT kind of scapegoating is morally reprehensible to me.
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11-02-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:What a very interesting idea you put forth.

So.. you are saying Jewbus couldn't poof the ready made snowball into existence, as It apparently did with everything else?

That's pretty limiting for an all powerful being.
I neither said that, nor implied it, but I know hedgehog's DAD cannot poof a snowball into existence. Try reading his post again, please.
And try and be more like Chas, who I find very thought provoking and insightful. Whereas you are just as terse in your reponses but seem interested in cheap jokes, not taking any ethical high ground or debating facts in evidence.
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11-02-2013, 03:37 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(11-02-2013 03:17 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:What a very interesting idea you put forth.

So.. you are saying Jewbus couldn't poof the ready made snowball into existence, as It apparently did with everything else?

That's pretty limiting for an all powerful being.
I neither said that, nor implied it, but I know hedgehog's DAD cannot poof a snowball into existence. Try reading his post again, please.
And try and be more like Chas, who I find very thought provoking and insightful. Whereas you are just as terse in your reponses but seem interested in cheap jokes, not taking any ethical high ground or debating facts in evidence.


Damn, Chas is gonna be mad that I'm being the terse one.. that's supposed to be his field.

This thread is based on a hypothetical which is itself based on the logical conundrum of: If god can create a rock so heavy he cannot lift, he is not all powerful, because he cannot lift the rock. However, if he cannot make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, he is not all powerful, because he cannot make said rock.

Hardly a place for ethics or fact; it is simply a whimsical paradox: If he can A, then he can't B, therefore he is not all powerful; If he can B then he failed A, therefore he is not all powerful.

You cannot debate facts or evidence in a setting such as this, there can be none for either set, unless of course somebody can produce an all powerful being with the power of spontaneous creation so that we may test the paradox. Otherwise, we achieve nothing by bivkering over pointless semantics.


You didn't want cheap jokes, there you go, that is my assessment of your comment, the paradox and the thread.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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11-02-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(11-02-2013 03:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:It's about the logical contradiction of omnipotence.
I don't get the logical contradiction of omnipotence, and I'm sincerely asking for you to explain, because I've heard a lot of whiney children tell me God's omnipotence leads to fatalism about eternity besides excusing all their sin. THAT kind of scapegoating is morally reprehensible to me.


It is the concept of omnipotence, regardless of whose, that is logically inconsistent.
If one assumes that some being is omnipotent, then contradictions (like the rock) can be derived.

This logically disproves the assumption, omnipotence. This is called a Reductio Ad Absurdum proof.

As for the rest of your post, I can't make heads or tails of it.

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