God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
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12-02-2013, 03:45 PM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2013 03:54 PM by PleaseJesus.)
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:The key point here is you have had to redefine "omnipotence" to get around the paradox.
All,
Omnipotence = Do anything? Is that correct? I've stayed there consistently with the caveat that God deigns to share power or has all power but doesn't exercise all power at all times. However, in the rock example:
No, God cannot create a rock he cannot heft or do anything else that defies logic. Saying "Can God's power defeat God's power?" is not a logical statement. You might as well say A is not equal to A or B is stronger than B plus now, we have the even worse, Sometimes B is stronger than B since God can lift some rocks He creates but not all rocks. Again, He already lifted the atomic mass of the rock in real space to "create it". And this leads to the delightful, "Does God get tired after making things...? and here comes a stupid Sabbath illustration about God's "resting" on the 7th day, I think..." Oy vey!
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12-02-2013, 03:50 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(12-02-2013 03:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-02-2013 02:18 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Logical consistency (human) may not be part of God's C.V.

If it/he/her/what did exist the former can't be blamed for what's written about it/he/her/what et al. surely, or semi surely.......................
Special pleading alert.
Who's pleading insanity?
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12-02-2013, 04:03 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(12-02-2013 03:45 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:The key point here is you have had to redefine "omnipotence" to get around the paradox.
All,
Omnipotence = Do anything? Is that correct? I've stayed there consistently with the caveat that God deigns to share power or has all power but doesn't exercise all power at all times. However, in the rock example:
No, God cannot create a rock he cannot heft or do anything else that defies logic. Saying "Can God's power defeat God's power?" is not a logical statement. You might as well say A is not equal to A or B is stronger than B plus now, we have the even worse, Sometimes B is stronger than B since God can lift some rocks He creates but not all rocks. Again, He already lifted the atomic mass of the rock in real space to "create it". And this leads to the delightful, "Does God get tired after making things...? and here comes a stupid Sabbath illustration about God's "resting" on the 7th day, I think..." Oy vey!


So omnipotence means doing anything except creating an inconsistency?
What other limits are there on omnipotence?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-02-2013, 04:05 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(12-02-2013 03:50 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Logical consistency (human) may not be part of God's C.V.

That's special pleading.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-02-2013, 06:11 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Maths time!

Lets say we have a being, any being, that has the property of omnipotence, ie has infinite power.

Define the power it takes to create a 1kg weight as 1P, or 1 unit of this beings magic power (this is an arbitrary choice).
Lets say the power it takes to lift this weight is xP, for some coefficient x.

So if the being creates a 10kg weight it uses 10P, then it requires 10xP units of power to lift this weight.

Since the being has infinite power, we can let the amount of weight it can create tend towards infinity (since it takes finite Y units of power to lift a Ykg weight). But it can always summon the required power (YxP units) to lift the weight.

So the answer to the paradox is no, it cannot create a weight that it cannot lift. If your definition of omnipotence is infinite power then this is fine, because it is the infinite power that leads to this. If your definition of omnipotence is the ability to achieve any goal or desired result, then that omnipotence cannot be achieved as the infinite power prevents this from being true.
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12-02-2013, 06:12 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
I can't do math... Weeping

I will never know the answer. Sadcryface

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12-02-2013, 06:26 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
The heavy rock paradox makes no sense, because:
- At a certain size the rock will have a greater mass than Earth itself, therefore the rock will "lose weight" and will attract Earth instead.
- At a certain size the rock will become so massive, that it will collapse under its own weight into a black hole, in which further questions are meaningless, as no information can escape the black hole.
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12-02-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(12-02-2013 06:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The heavy rock paradox makes no sense, because:
- At a certain size the rock will have a greater mass than Earth itself, therefore the rock will "lose weight" and will attract Earth instead.
- At a certain size the rock will become so massive, that it will collapse under its own weight into a black hole, in which further questions are meaningless, as no information can escape the black hole.
The rock is not the point. You can safely assume that it's mass can increase to infinity without collapsing since it is not a literal model.
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12-02-2013, 06:38 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
So... why are we discussing this again? Consider

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12-02-2013, 06:48 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(12-02-2013 06:38 PM)Vosur Wrote:  So... why are we discussing this again? Consider
Not even sure anymore.
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