God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-02-2013, 07:05 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(12-02-2013 06:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The heavy rock paradox makes no sense, because:
- At a certain size the rock will have a greater mass than Earth itself, therefore the rock will "lose weight" and will attract Earth instead.
- At a certain size the rock will become so massive, that it will collapse under its own weight into a black hole, in which further questions are meaningless, as no information can escape the black hole.


That's not the point. It's not the physics, it's the logic. Forget the fuckin' rock.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2013, 07:50 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:So omnipotence means doing anything except creating an inconsistency? What other limits are there on omnipotence?
***
Quote:That's not the point. It's not the physics, it's the logic. Forget the fuckin' rock.
***
Let me get this straight. You wish to debate this using LOGIC while saying that an omnipotent God cannot employ ILLOGIC? Okay, you have two choices:
1. God both can and cannot lift a rock of any size. I know that sounds illogical to you, but's God's omnipotence allows for this gap in logic...
OR
2. What I've been saying all along, that God is who He is, a logical being, and the question is self-contradictory on its face and moot... e.g. I have the power to punch an Atheist in their stomach but my nature is loving since Jesus lives inside me, so I don't. Isn't that sweet of me?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2013, 08:03 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
To be honest I've probably said all I can say in this thread, but I'm still driven to state the problem mathematically to clarify the paradox.

Let a universe state be an array of values (possibly infinite) or equivalently an n-dimensional matrix.
Let omnipotence be defined as the ability to replace any value or any set of values in the array with alternative values. That is to say that omnipotence is the ability to create a new universe state denoted universe' such that universe' = universe + v where v is a vector of values to modify within the original universe.
Assume that there exists a G such that G is omnipotent, possibly existing in dimensions greater than n and free to move in those dimensions, or possibly existing the array itself.
If G exists within the universe then G can destroy itself by setting its own values to a predefined value or to random values, or causing G's own values to be set thusly. Ie GOD can create a rock so heavy that it destroys him, meaning that he does not have the power to lift it Wink
If G does not exist within the universe, then there is no sequence of changes to the universe that G could cause that would relieve G of it's innate omnipotence property, thus god cannot create a rock that he cannot lift.

So there is no paradox with these definitions, as far as I can see. What alternative definition of "universe" and/or what alternative definition of "omnipotent" would the pro-paradox camp use that actually does result in a paradox? Alternatively, based on my definitions how does a paradox arise?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(13-02-2013 08:03 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  To be honest I've probably said all I can say in this thread, but I'm still driven to state the problem mathematically to clarify the paradox.

Let a universe state be an array of values (possibly infinite) or equivalently an n-dimensional matrix.
Let omnipotence be defined as the ability to replace any value or any set of values in the array with alternative values. That is to say that omnipotence is the ability to create a new universe state denoted universe' such that universe' = universe + v where v is a vector of values to modify within the original universe.
Assume that there exists a G such that G is omnipotent, possibly existing in dimensions greater than n and free to move in those dimensions, or possibly existing the array itself.
If G exists within the universe then G can destroy itself by setting its own values to a predefined value or to random values, or causing G's own values to be set thusly. Ie GOD can create a rock so heavy that it destroys him, meaning that he does not have the power to lift it Wink
If G does not exist within the universe, then there is no sequence of changes to the universe that G could cause that would relieve G of it's innate omnipotence property, thus god cannot create a rock that he cannot lift.

So there is no paradox with these definitions, as far as I can see. What alternative definition of "universe" and/or what alternative definition of "omnipotent" would the pro-paradox camp use that actually does result in a paradox? Alternatively, based on my definitions how does a paradox arise?
Yes, within those definitions there is no paradox.

However can you name one theist who has ever used those definitions? The entire model requires that specific definition of omnipotence, and if theists don't ascribe to that definition, then it is irrelevant to any argument regarding said omnipotence of their deity.

I already presented a model for a definition of omnipotence (infinite power + ability to achieve any desired result) that creates a paradox - I would argue that my definition is far more likely to be claimed by a theist than your own.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:I already presented a model for a definition of omnipotence (infinite power + ability to achieve any desired result) that creates a paradox - I would argue that my definition is far more likely to be claimed by a theist than your own.
Is that definition suitable for the rock paradox, really? You're saying God has the power to achieve any desired result, including making himself look weak (can't lift) or illogical?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(13-02-2013 01:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I already presented a model for a definition of omnipotence (infinite power + ability to achieve any desired result) that creates a paradox - I would argue that my definition is far more likely to be claimed by a theist than your own.
Is that definition suitable for the rock paradox, really? You're saying God has the power to achieve any desired result, including making himself look weak (can't lift) or illogical?
No I'm saying that the definition of "infinite power + ability to do anything" would be defeated by the rock paradox.

If you actually looked at my earlier post you would see that I concluded that the paradox doesn't apply if you simply define omnipotence as "infinite power" . . .

Perhaps you should define omnipotence for us, you're the theist here.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Omni = all. Potent = power or potential.
God has all power. All power should be able to make any rock, and lift any rock. The answer to the paradox is "No" since making and lifting follow in a time sequence. However, and here's where the paradox gets interesting, God exists out of time so He can subvert even that, and go back in time to lift the rock in an earlier state when it was still not too heavy to lift, so the answer is still, No.
You're screwed then, unless you can get the Delorean up to 88 m.p.h.
Wait a minute, God can come forward in time again to where the rock was so heavy He couldn't lift it--not that He tried--He simply exerted His omniscience, and thus, two all powerful Gods existing in the same place and time, He could help Himself lift the rock. Shoot, the answer is still No, you're wrong. He can lift it.
Do you want to keep on wasting our time or use it effectively to rescue me from my mindless Theism?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(13-02-2013 02:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  God exists out of time so He can subvert even that, and go back in time to lift the rock in an earlier state when it was still not too heavy to lift, so the answer is still, No.
Again you make unsupported statements. Again you revert to special pleading.

What does it mean to 'exist out of time'?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(13-02-2013 02:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-02-2013 02:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  God exists out of time so He can subvert even that, and go back in time to lift the rock in an earlier state when it was still not too heavy to lift, so the answer is still, No.
Again you make unsupported statements. Again you revert to special pleading.

What does it mean to 'exist out of time'?
It means it doesn't exist.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a message, complain to me and I will be happy to demonstrate.

[Image: tta.php]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like KVron's post
13-02-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:Again you make unsupported statements. Again you revert to special pleading.

What does it mean to 'exist out of time'?
OMG? Smile Am omnipotent being who created man and set finite bounds for in the beginning and was there before there was a universe (or the big bang happened, if you like) BEFORE there was linear time in this universe exists out of time.
OR... my omnipotent God is capable of time travel without a Delorean. Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: