God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
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22-02-2013, 08:15 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Sure. Why not.
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22-02-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:So your local museum displayed false information then corrected it with the modern accepted scientific viewpoint? And the information currently presented is . . . what exactly?

Like I already pointed out (a point that you did not address in your reply, which is quoted below), macro-evolution is just evolution. If you have lots of micro-evolutions from species A to B to C to D to E, you also have a macro-evolution from species A to species E. The only difference is scale, the process is the same. To accept one and not the other is either a) a misunderstanding of what evolution is, or b) dishonesty.

What you say about transitional fossils is pure misinformation and ignorance. Every fossil in the fossil record is a transitional fossil, and every species alive today is a transitional species. Evolution is a continuous process, it doesn't stop and start, and every single species is a transitional species between the species it evolved from and the one it will next evolve into.
Sorry to be away, I was busy not proving the existence of God.
The information the museum currently presents is that Archaeopteryx was formerly on display but has since been ackknowledged to not be a link between birds and reptiles. I don't want to start a Wikipedia links war, but suffice it to say, honest scientists (not Christians, but not your kind of scientists) threw Arch out years ago. I mean, you say I'm dishonest...
I hear what you're saying regarding micro being a part or subset of what eventually becomes macro. I really do. But saying that the fossil record is all squared away would not be the whole truth. Nor would saying that scientists agree as to who are common evo ancestors are... even if you said "most think lemurs--apes--people" that's what most think, the last few years, and, well, um, wait for it... the scientists change their shell game every oh, so often.
But where I must admit you've gone off the reservation is your every species is transitional between species baloney. But that's not your own imagination, is it? Which of the books is it in that you recommend so I'm certain to avoid reading it?
Let's see I'll give you lion-cat and leopard-cat. You ever look at a detailed Phylogenetic Tree? That's thing is pretty, what's the word? Filled-with-baloney...?
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22-02-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Look, I had another deep think about this. It's not my intention to sound flippant or use one-word answers to sound like I'm pessimistic on either scientists or the scientific method. Here's what I came up with:

I believed Evolution to be true before I was a Christian. Then I studied both Evolution and Creation before concluding Creation was true. But if I returned to believing Evolution was true, I would affirm that at as an amazing mechanism, able to provide more and more complex species and an incredible biodiversity of life, that as a process it showed evidence of a guiding intelligence behind it. That is, that Evolution strengthened my personal belief in ID.

Are you saying (talking to anyone who cares to respond here) that Evolution negates an intelligent designer? The fundamental mechanistic processes would have been enacted long ago. You might say there is no current evidence for a designer/higher power. But "the seeds of Evolution" were sewn so long ago gone in our human pre-history--are you saying Evolution negates ID? Please comment if you would.

Thanks.
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22-02-2013, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2013 01:55 PM by Vosur.)
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(22-02-2013 01:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Look, I had another deep think about this. It's not my intention to sound flippant or use one-word answers to sound like I'm pessimistic on either scientists or the scientific method. Here's what I came up with:

I believed Evolution to be true before I was a Christian. Then I studied both Evolution and Creation before concluding Creation was true.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.

You never studied evolution. If you had read even a single book on the theory of evolution written by an evolutionary biologist, you wouldn't have had to ask the questions you asked and most of this thread's discussion wouldn't have took place.

(22-02-2013 01:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But if I returned to believing Evolution was true, I would affirm that at as an amazing mechanism, able to provide more and more complex species and an incredible biodiversity of life, that as a process it showed evidence of a guiding intelligence behind it. That is, that Evolution strengthened my personal belief in ID.

Are you saying (talking to anyone who cares to respond here) that Evolution negates an intelligent designer? The fundamental mechanistic processes would have been enacted long ago. You might say there is no current evidence for a designer/higher power. But "the seeds of Evolution" were sewn so long ago gone in our human pre-history--are you saying Evolution negates ID? Please comment if you would.

Thanks.
No, evolution does not negate an intelligent designer. There is, however, no reason to propose that an intelligent designer guided the process of evolution because this assumption is not required to explain our observations (Occam's razor).

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22-02-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(22-02-2013 01:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Look, I had another deep think about this. It's not my intention to sound flippant or use one-word answers to sound like I'm pessimistic on either scientists or the scientific method. Here's what I came up with:

I believed Evolution to be true before I was a Christian. Then I studied both Evolution and Creation before concluding Creation was true. But if I returned to believing Evolution was true, I would affirm that at as an amazing mechanism, able to provide more and more complex species and an incredible biodiversity of life, that as a process it showed evidence of a guiding intelligence behind it. That is, that Evolution strengthened my personal belief in ID.

Are you saying (talking to anyone who cares to respond here) that Evolution negates an intelligent designer? The fundamental mechanistic processes would have been enacted long ago. You might say there is no current evidence for a designer/higher power. But "the seeds of Evolution" were sewn so long ago gone in our human pre-history--are you saying Evolution negates ID? Please comment if you would.

Thanks.


No, evolution does not negate it, IT SIMPLY ISN'T NECESSARY to the theory.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-02-2013, 02:23 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:Liar, liar, pants on fire.

You never studied evolution. If you had read even a single book on the theory of evolution written by an evolutionary biologist, you wouldn't have had to ask the questions you asked and most of this thread's discussion wouldn't have took place.
Of course I did and would. Are you that gullible that you read books and don't question them? I have questions and even about the Bible and on a frequent basis. My goodness, I don't know how much longer I can debate you, since you seem to have zero opinions in the absence of books and articles you've read.
My questions still stand. I've argued ancilliary and vestigial organs and etc. with EB's and those who love them.
Quote:No, evolution does not negate an intelligent designer. There is, however, no reason to propose that an intelligent designer guided the process of evolution because this assumption is not required to explain our observations (Occam's razor).
Understood. Have you studied out the odds of the simplest life forms and the building blocks of life forming by random occurence (and by random I mean the commonly taken viewpoint as to how life first formed apart from a guided designer--an open system with input from the Sun, etc., etc.)? Those numbers are compelling IMHO.
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22-02-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(22-02-2013 02:23 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:No, evolution does not negate an intelligent designer. There is, however, no reason to propose that an intelligent designer guided the process of evolution because this assumption is not required to explain our observations (Occam's razor).
Understood. Have you studied out the odds of the simplest life forms and the building blocks of life forming by random occurence (and by random I mean the commonly taken viewpoint as to how life first formed apart from a guided designer--an open system with input from the Sun, etc., etc.)? Those numbers are compelling IMHO.
An argument regarding the phenomenal odds, what a refreshing, interesting and completely new argument.

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22-02-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Hey, PJ.

Quote:Are you saying (talking to anyone who cares to respond here) that
Evolution negates an intelligent designer? The fundamental mechanistic
processes would have been enacted long ago. You might say there is no
current evidence for a designer/higher power. But "the seeds of
Evolution" were sewn so long ago gone in our human pre-history--are you
saying Evolution negates ID? Please comment if you would.

I have not encountered anything in my lifetime that negates the existence of God (who I assume would be playing the role of your intelligent designer).

The idea of Universal Darwinism suggests that evolution via selection doesn't just govern the evolution of biological organisms on Earth, but that it governs the evolution of all replicators everywhere in the universe. It is like gravity or chemistry; it is a process that simply is. Like all other natural forces, it cannot be escaped.

Evolution is an algorithm that is always at work in the same way that gravity is always at work (even if you're in zero G or if you're in negative Gs). If you have variation and heredity and selection then you MUST have evolution. So it doesn't need a hand to guide it, it is self-guiding.

Could God be the one that wrote the algorithm? Sure. That's a possibility.

Does God intervene? Again, it's possible. If I roll a ball across a long sloped table, natural laws, inertia, friction, aerodynamics, gravity... they all take hold of the ball and make it behave the way that it's going to behave. Once I let go of it, it no longer needs my help. At any point during its path across the table, I could reach out and bat it across the room if I saw fit, or even blow on it gently, altering it's course ever so slightly.

I CAN intervene; however, the ball does not REQUIRE me to.

While divine intervention in the evolutionary process is possible, it's not required and there is no EVIDENCE of it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-02-2013, 02:51 PM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2013 02:56 PM by Vosur.)
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(22-02-2013 02:23 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Of course I did and would.
Is that so? In that case, please name the titles of the books you have read. In this thread, you also claimed that one of these books you allegedly read was contradictory and biased and even though I have requested you to reveal the book's name to me, you have failed to do so up until now.

(22-02-2013 02:23 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Are you that gullible that you read books and don't question them? I have questions and even about the Bible and on a frequent basis. My goodness, I don't know how much longer I can debate you, since you seem to have zero opinions in the absence of books and articles you've read.
I'm a critical thinker, so yes, I have questioned them. In fact, that is the very essence of the biology class I am currently attending. Each lesson we look at different aspects of the fossil record and examine whether or not the theory of evolution holds up to rational scrutiny. Just two days ago, we started testing the hypothesis that all living organisms share a common ancestor in one of our periods and we were able to approve of it.

(22-02-2013 02:23 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  My questions still stand. I've argued ancilliary and vestigial organs and etc. with EB's and those who love them.
Which questions?

(22-02-2013 02:23 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Understood. Have you studied out the odds of the simplest life forms and the building blocks of life forming by random occurence (and by random I mean the commonly taken viewpoint as to how life first formed apart from a guided designer--an open system with input from the Sun, etc., etc.)? Those numbers are compelling IMHO.
Do you care to elaborate on this?

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22-02-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:Is that so? In that case, please name the titles of the books you have read. In this thread, you also claimed that one of these books you allegedly read was contradictory and biased and even though I have requested you to reveal the book's name to me, you have failed to do so up until now.
Sorry to imply there was just one. Every time I pick up anything by Dawkins, for one example, I feel like I'm reading The Book of Mormon. I could open his crap at random and find flaws.
Quote:I'm a critical thinker, so yes, I have questioned them. In fact, that is the very essence of the biology class I am currently attending. Each lesson we look at different aspects of the fossil record and examine whether or not the theory of evolution holds up to rational scrutiny. Just two days ago, we started testing the hypothesis that all living organisms share a common ancestor in one of our periods and we were able to approve of it.
How did you do so? I'm fascinated. Shouldn't you collect your Nobel now?
Quote:Which questions?
The same ones you have... Why have textbooks evolved from 200 human vestigal organs to a few? The appendix--which is uniquely struck by a malady and removed to end that malady without any other organ needing surgery, implying it has a unique if unknown function 2) the molar teeth, which are no longer removed proactively and change one's palate and voice 3) the tonnsils... oh, I give up. You're beating a dead horse, now, V. I agree that Evolution neither negates nor proves ID. What the Hell do your inquistions, I mean inquiries, have to do with rocks?
[quote]Do you care to elaborate on this?[quote]
Sure. Let these people argue it: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/r...endaB.html they seem smarter than both of us.
Done. God cannot make a God who cannot make a rock that is not too heavy to be not lifted towards the non-center of a singularity with infinite distance and no center of mass near a white hole at the non-center of the geocentric universe.
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