God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
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25-02-2013, 02:39 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
If by "God" you mean some "spaceless, timeless, transcedent, all-powerful, uncaused...yada, yada, yada", then yeah...this guy can do whatever the hell he wants. For this "thing" in addition to creating the universe in which we live would have also created the metaphysiocal relations by whence we drive the axioms of logic. Therefore, he could have created a universe where there were laws of logic that allowed him to form a rock that he both could lift and not lift at the same time. He could have also created a universe containing a rock that he could never lift...yet which never existed. I know what I've just said doesn't make sense to us, but that's because we're in a particular universe with familiar logical axioms that we take for granted (most of the time).

With ultimate power...you can make your own rules and all things are possible.
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25-02-2013, 03:38 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2013 01:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 01:32 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So now, you are admitting that your God is limited only to what is possible (i.e. he is subservient to logic). Any other limits you'd like to put on your 'all-powerful' God?

Just a suggestion, but if he isn't 'all-powerful', you should really use another word other than omnipotent.

omni - all
potent - powerful
Omnipotent is a perfectly acceptible word to describe the power to do all logically possible things. I'm sorry if you don't like my(and many many many other thiests) use of the word. I only ask that you don't use some other definition to construct a straw man argument. Such behavior should be beneath a thinking atheist.
My recollection might be wrong but I believe when the word was first used it referred to powerful political leaders like dictators and such.
Further, unless you believe there is a limit on the number of logically possible things that could be done, God's power to do logically possible things is limitless.


Omnipotence - the state of being omnipotent; having unlimited power
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/web...mnipotence

Omnipotence -1: the quality or state of being omnipotent 2: an agency or force of unlimited power
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotence

Omnipotent - 1. almighty or infinite in power, as God. 2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omnipotent


I'm failing to see the addition of the caveat for being limited to 'logic', since if you are limited by logic, then you are not ALL powerful. If your power is now limited by logic, it is then by very definition NOT unlimited.

What it looks like to me is special pleading cooked up by some of the religious after they realized that the attributes given to god in their books lead to paradoxes like this, and so they had fudge their definition of it to suite their own needs. You can say you God is limited by logic, that's fine. But that attribute is NOT omnipotence.

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25-02-2013, 03:58 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2013 03:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 01:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Omnipotent is a perfectly acceptible word to describe the power to do all logically possible things. I'm sorry if you don't like my(and many many many other thiests) use of the word. I only ask that you don't use some other definition to construct a straw man argument. Such behavior should be beneath a thinking atheist.
My recollection might be wrong but I believe when the word was first used it referred to powerful political leaders like dictators and such.
Further, unless you believe there is a limit on the number of logically possible things that could be done, God's power to do logically possible things is limitless.


Omnipotence - the state of being omnipotent; having unlimited power
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/web...mnipotence

Omnipotence -1: the quality or state of being omnipotent 2: an agency or force of unlimited power
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotence

Omnipotent - 1. almighty or infinite in power, as God. 2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omnipotent


I'm failing to see the addition of the caveat for being limited to 'logic', since if you are limited by logic, then you are not ALL powerful. If your power is now limited by logic, it is then by very definition NOT unlimited.

What it looks like to me is special pleading cooked up by some of the religious after they realized that the attributes given to god in their books lead to paradoxes like this, and so they had fudge their definition of it to suite their own needs. You can say you God is limited by logic, that's fine. But that attribute is NOT omnipotence.
Are you suggesting there is a limit on logically possible actions? If there isn't then the power to do logically possible things is unlimited.

If you don't want to accept my definition of omnipotence when arguing with me about my belief in God, I'm not going to get butthurt about it. Just don't expect me to be convinced by your straw man arguments when you use some other definition. Also keep in mind that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of thiests share my veiw on omnipotence, so if you want to argue with them, you need to frame your arguements around their definition of omnipotence otherwise your arguments with them will also be straw man arguments.
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25-02-2013, 04:08 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2013 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 03:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Omnipotence - the state of being omnipotent; having unlimited power
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/web...mnipotence

Omnipotence -1: the quality or state of being omnipotent 2: an agency or force of unlimited power
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotence

Omnipotent - 1. almighty or infinite in power, as God. 2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omnipotent


I'm failing to see the addition of the caveat for being limited to 'logic', since if you are limited by logic, then you are not ALL powerful. If your power is now limited by logic, it is then by very definition NOT unlimited.

What it looks like to me is special pleading cooked up by some of the religious after they realized that the attributes given to god in their books lead to paradoxes like this, and so they had fudge their definition of it to suite their own needs. You can say you God is limited by logic, that's fine. But that attribute is NOT omnipotence.
Are you suggesting there is a limit on logically possible actions? If there isn't then the power to do logically possible things is unlimited.

If you don't want to accept my definition of omnipotence when arguing with me about my belief in God, I'm not going to get butthurt about it. Just don't expect me to be convinced by your straw man arguments when you use some other definition. Also keep in mind that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of thiests share my veiw on omnipotence, so if you want to argue with them, you need to frame your arguements around their definition of omnipotence otherwise your arguments with them will also be straw man arguments.

Hey, I wasn't the one that wrote down that God was omnipotent without thinking that one through all the way. Fudge the definition all you like, I'm just going by what the book actually says. You're definition is special pleading, regardless of how many others buy into it.

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25-02-2013, 04:26 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2013 04:08 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Are you suggesting there is a limit on logically possible actions? If there isn't then the power to do logically possible things is unlimited.

If you don't want to accept my definition of omnipotence when arguing with me about my belief in God, I'm not going to get butthurt about it. Just don't expect me to be convinced by your straw man arguments when you use some other definition. Also keep in mind that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of thiests share my veiw on omnipotence, so if you want to argue with them, you need to frame your arguements around their definition of omnipotence otherwise your arguments with them will also be straw man arguments.

Hey, I wasn't the one that wrote down that God was omnipotent without thinking that one through all the way. Fudge the definition all you like, I'm just going by what the book actually says. You're definition is special pleading, regardless of how many others buy into it.
Actually you are a making the special pleading by ignoring the definition of omnipotence used by many theist. Omnipotence is just a word and its meaningfulness comes from the people who use that word. When a billion catholics say omnipotence is the power to do all that is logically possible, it is silly for you to claim their beliefs are errant because they are using a different definition of omnipotence then you use. For God's sake man, make your arguments against what these people believe, not in what you thin a theist should believe.
Let me ask you this: Is there anything which makes it logically impossible for a being to have the power to do all that is logically possible?
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25-02-2013, 04:50 AM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2013 05:19 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2013 04:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Let me ask you this: Is there anything which makes it logically impossible for a being to have the power to do all that is logically possible?


I don't know, and I'm betting you don't either. But instead of going with that honest answer, instead you'll just use it as an excuse to shoehorn in your God instead. Is such a thing possible? Not sure. Is it at all probable? Near as we can tell, absolutely not.


Also, it was not a stawman attack. Where was I miss-representing your position? I'm not miss-represting it at all, I am openly and clearly contesting your definition. Be more careful with false accusations in the future.

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25-02-2013, 07:58 AM
AW: RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2013 01:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I hope you understand that if you employ the "argument"(I put it in quotes because it is indeed a bad argument) against a thiest who uses a definition of omnipotence close to mine, you are making a straw man argument.
You don't say. Drinking Beverage

(25-02-2013 01:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  According to this catholic encyclopedia omnipotence is defined as "the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible".

There are over a billion catholics so I think I am safe ground in saying my defintion of omnipotence is one commonly used by theist world wide.
How exactly is this relevant to the discussion?

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25-02-2013, 09:27 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:Actually you are a making the special pleading by ignoring the definition of omnipotence used by many theist. Omnipotence is just a word and its meaningfulness comes from the people who use that word.
I agree. This has been a fun thread for looking at logic, infinity, and omnipotence, but I'd say the God of the Bible cannot do several things because He does what is of His nature. He cannot do anything illogical, unlawful (against Torah/Tanakh law codes) or unloving.
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25-02-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2013 09:27 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  He cannot do anything illogical, unlawful (against Torah/Tanakh law codes) or unloving.
According to the Bible, Yahweh is actually able to do both unlawful and unloving things.

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25-02-2013, 09:36 AM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Quote:As it turns out, I was right about you being unable to name the title of a single book or offer a single citation to prove that one of those books is biased and contradictory. It very much seems like you were lying after all.

You're right, Vosur. I really need to put Smile or something similar since you have neither a sense of humor or a sense of irony.

I simply churned back the same things I hear about the Bible as about EB books on Evolution. They are "self-contradictory" (and I know we can find examples if we cared to look--I have and did and continue to do so) and they are "biased" (Chas recommending Dawkins' EB books means there's no bias within, of course Smile) "hearsay in nature" (there is micro-Evolution observable now but no transition between kinds or families of species) and these books' countless assumptions--from uniformitarian conditions of pressure and temperature to mythic nonsense about how water arrived in great quantities on the Earth (maybe it was impacts with asteroids/planetoids from the outer reaches past Jupiter or maybe it was different temperature and pressure retaining certain elements from ancient Earth--though whether ancient Earth was Hadean or cool, who knows?) is all-but-laughable.

We all know Creationists talk about a young solar system (5,000 to 500 million years, I don't care, take your pick) and point out dozens of facts, like how few comets should remain here... and there is conjecture about the Kuiper Belt (we've found 100 objects within but 10,000 are conjectured to exist or more) AND a Oort Cloud, which has never been seen but Go-go-gosh, it just HAS to be there somewhere or the Creationists are right... sad.
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