God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
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25-02-2010, 05:29 PM
 
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
(23-01-2010 11:48 PM)New Frontier Wrote:  J_V, you say that his answer would be "Yes, I can create a rock like that, but I will not do so.", and in doing so he would be admitting that he is not omnipotent, since if he can create a rock which he can not lift. The paradox doesn't lie in whether he actually does it, but only in whether he can do it or not, and it's not about whether he can manipulate the world already in existence, but whether he could create a world in which he had no control.

I know i might sound like someone who believes in god, so i just want to clarify that i do not.

Maybe he's afraid of getting a hernia. Tongue
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25-02-2010, 08:14 PM
 
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
People...Please...God can't draw a square circle, or make a married bachelor, or cold fire, hot ice etc. These kinds of arguments are clearly illogical and even silly, although they are commonly used by inexperienced atheists. Most intelligent atheists have dropped these kinds of arguments long ago. Plus the Bible never says the omnipotent, look it up do your research. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...c33AxuRHkO
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25-02-2010, 09:44 PM
 
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2010 08:14 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  People...Please...God can't draw a square circle, or make a married bachelor, or cold fire, hot ice etc. These kinds of arguments are clearly illogical and even silly, although they are commonly used by inexperienced atheists. Most intelligent atheists have dropped these kinds of arguments long ago. Plus the Bible never says the omnipotent, look it up do your research. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...c33AxuRHkO

Then God is my uncle Gus, who THINKS he can do everything but falls short of even trying! Big Grin

No, it probably doesn't call him omnipotent...however...

By definition of the word 'God'...the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

Omnipotent - almighty or infinite in power, as God.

Omniscient - having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Omnibenevolent - NO SUCH DEFINITION IN THE DICTIONARY.

Call it association, call it whatever you want...if you want to be god, you have to, by definition, be omnipotent AND omniscient...otherwise, you are just another guy. Omnibenevolence is optional (since there is no such definition, we can draw that assumption), we already know how god acts in the OT...far from benevolent.

So, if you are 'almighty or infinite in power, as God', then 'yes', you CAN "draw a square circle, or make a married bachelor, or cold fire, hot ice etc." If you cannot, then you are not omnipotent and, by lacking this factor, you don't exist (at least, not as a 'god'). You're just another schmuck who thinks he knows a lot but is proven wrong at every turn, and who thinks he can do anything but fails at everything.

FYI, this guy's got one up on god because he CAN make hot ice (maybe HE'S god):

Careful, martinb59, he's showing a SCIENCE experiment...it may make you think...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC-KOYQsIvU
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25-02-2010, 10:00 PM
 
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
(25-02-2010 08:14 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Plus the Bible never says the omnipotent, look it up do your research.

A short quote from http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/vi...mber=T6547

"The noun "omnipotence" is not found in the English Bible, nor any noun exactly corresponding to it in the original Hebrew or Greek

The adjective "omnipotent" occurs in Revelation 19:6 the King James Version; the Greek for this, pantokrator, occurs also in 2 Corinthians 6:18; Revelation 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7,14; 19:15; 21:22 (in all of which the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) render "almighty")."

Now, revelation 19:6 goes like this:

"Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying,

“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. "

Job 42:2 even goes on to say (this is Job speaking to god):

"I know that You can do all things,

And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. "

Now, also, if god created the universe he must have created the rules of logic. Now, that article you linked states that "God has always been omnipotent. " What would be stopping him in simply changing the laws of logic (which he must have created in the first place) to suit the task at hand?
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26-02-2010, 02:28 AM
 
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
According to Jewish rabbis, there's a simple solution to this paradox - god is capable of everything that is possible. He's not capable of logically impossible things.
According to some dumb theists - people can't understand god's infinite wisdom or something, and therefore we should not discuss this paradox.
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28-02-2010, 08:47 PM
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
(06-01-2010 01:20 PM)Korkzor Wrote:  I have been working on finding an answer to this and I think I have come up with one though I am sure it is just as flawed as what you guys are saying

It is a different question though but with the same sort of logic

"Can God create a God with stronger powers than himself"

Now, by asking that question you have assumed that God doesn't have all the power in the world.
If I were to simply say that he has all power in the world imaginable then it is simply not possible for a stronger God to exist.
I guess that does place a limit on "God" but if I were to simply argue that the limit is no limit, as in "my power is limitless", then if I were to trye to create a God stronger than myself, as in with more power, I would find I already had those powers.
Might be a bit complicated written but I would love to hear your thoughts

Just a quick comment on that. If god were to create a yet more powerful god, only to find he already had the new power of the new god, then he didn't really create a more powerful god.

The idea of omnipotent is logically flawed. I believe someone clarified it to god can do anything that isn't logically impossible. It's a shame too, cause I really wanted to get a look at that round square of his.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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28-02-2010, 11:23 PM
 
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
Korkzor, finally someone one this site with a little humility, unlike "unbeliever". I love that you said "just as flawed as what you guys are saying" What you are asking is that God become self contradictory as a proof He doesn't exist. Your assertion is illogical from the start. So what you are doing is trying to get God to be illogical. You want to use "illogic" if that's a word, to prove God doesn't exist instead of logic. It doesn't work and the "paradox" is self-refuting and invalid.

What you are saying is "a being more powerful than a supremely powerful being’, so is likewise self contradictory. Or using the rock example, ‘a rock too heavy for God to lift’ is really ‘a rock too heavy for a being who can lift anything’, so it is a self-contradiction. A ‘square circle’ and ‘2+2=5’ are likewise contradictory states of affairs. Therefore these are all nothings. And a meaningless nothing doesn't become a ‘something’ just because someone puts the phrase, ‘an all-powerful God could’ in front of it. Here is one for "Unbeliever" it is Fallacy of contradictory premises.
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01-03-2010, 07:31 AM
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
(28-02-2010 11:23 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Korkzor, finally someone one this site with a little humility, unlike "unbeliever".

Why the quotes? I know you don't think there are any atheists, but my username isn't about atheism. It's from a book series: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson. The quote in my sig and my title - "White Gold Wielder" - are also from those books.
Also,

[Image: irony.jpg]

Quote:<snip> Here is one for "Unbeliever" it is Fallacy of contradictory premises.

Yes, you are entirely correct. It's the unstoppable force/immovable object paradox, and the only answer is that such a situation cannot logically exist.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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01-03-2010, 09:54 AM
 
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
(01-03-2010 07:31 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(28-02-2010 11:23 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Korkzor, finally someone one this site with a little humility, unlike "unbeliever".

Why the quotes? I know you don't think there are any atheists, but my username isn't about atheism. It's from a book series: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson. The quote in my sig and my title - "White Gold Wielder" - are also from those books.
Also,

[Image: irony.jpg]

Quote:<snip> Here is one for "Unbeliever" it is Fallacy of contradictory premises.

Yes, you are entirely correct. It's the unstoppable force/immovable object paradox, and the only answer is that such a situation cannot logically exist.

The quotes are to distinguish you "Unbeliever" as a person, from an unbeliever
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01-03-2010, 10:05 AM
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
(01-03-2010 09:54 AM)martinb59 Wrote:  The quotes are to distinguish you "Unbeliever" as a person, from an unbeliever

Ah. Just curious. Thanks.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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