God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
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08-02-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(08-02-2013 01:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 09:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  The whole discussion of omnipotence presupposes the existence of the being for which there is no evidence. Mental masturbation.

Just sayin', Chas. Drinking Beverage


I was trying to forestall the stupid, but the stupid continued. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(08-02-2013 01:35 PM)hedgehog648 Wrote:  1) There are no limitations on omnipotence.
2) The paradox shows that limits can be placed on the property of omnipotence by that very same property itself.
3) God is omnipotent.
4) Therefore the paradox is stupid.

More or less, yes... I wouldn't say "stupid", though... incompatible would be the right word.


Quote:So within the known physical realm, omnipotence is impossible. Therefore in the known physical realm, God is either not omnipotent or non existent yes?
So in order for you to say yes God is omnipotent, you would have to show that there does actually exist another realm where the rules of logic do not apply and omnipotence is possible, and then further show that God actually exists there.

Why would God be bound by the limitations of this realm? You're basically restating the paradox... just different words. If God is omnipotent, then the logic, rules, and rationale of the realm we know can't apply to Him.

Likewise, the "proving" God isn't necessary to this discussion because we are discussing one of God's properties.

Quote:Bolded text for funsies. Is this not a contradiction? Surely the logical coherence of the concept of God's omnipotence is relevant to the discussion of the concept of God's omnipotence?

No. Like I said to Chas... a general acceptance that God is omnipotent is necessary to the discussion of God's omnipotence. If God is omnipotent, He can operate outside of logic and rationale, the point of boxing in our understanding of omnipotence is moot...

...which is the answer to the whole paradox to begin with.

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08-02-2013, 02:25 PM
 
RE: God's Omnipitance - The heavy rock paradox
(08-02-2013 11:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-02-2013 11:36 AM)Egor Wrote:  Because then I have to clean up my office. Why not ban me?


Why would we ban you? That's not how we roll. You are free to blather on, I just don't see why you bother to blather here.

Honestly, I don't either. But if I leave here now, I won't have anyone to debate with because I'm not going into the Christian or other atheist forums until Easter. By then, I'll have several weekly Gospel teachings posted, and several YouTube videos posted, all of which will be in the library of the Chapel--and then I'll launch with the newest teaching and video that Sunday.

The forum is done.
The chat room is done.
The website is done.
I'm just filling in content at this point and practicing up.
There is nothing not done that can't be done at a later date (like a forum constitution and chruch bylaws, etc.).
Easter is when I want to launch.
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08-02-2013, 02:27 PM
 
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(08-02-2013 12:30 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  Could someone reexplain this paradox again? In little words that I can understand? Also, why is egor so afraid of being banned? All I see is mods reassuring him that he won't be.

I'm not afraid. At this point I'm pretty indifferent.
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08-02-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(08-02-2013 01:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(08-02-2013 01:35 PM)hedgehog648 Wrote:  1) There are no limitations on omnipotence.
2) The paradox shows that limits can be placed on the property of omnipotence by that very same property itself.
3) God is omnipotent.
4) Therefore the paradox is stupid.

1) More or less, yes... I wouldn't say "stupid", though... incompatible would be the right word.


Quote:So within the known physical realm, omnipotence is impossible. Therefore in the known physical realm, God is either not omnipotent or non existent yes?
So in order for you to say yes God is omnipotent, you would have to show that there does actually exist another realm where the rules of logic do not apply and omnipotence is possible, and then further show that God actually exists there.

2) Why would God be bound by the limitations of this realm? You're basically restating the paradox... just different words. If God is omnipotent, then the logic, rules, and rationale of the realm we know can't apply to Him.

Likewise, the "proving" God isn't necessary to this discussion because we are discussing one of God's properties.

Quote:Bolded text for funsies. Is this not a contradiction? Surely the logical coherence of the concept of God's omnipotence is relevant to the discussion of the concept of God's omnipotence?

3) No. Like I said to Chas... a general acceptance that God is omnipotent is necessary to the discussion of God's omnipotence. If God is omnipotent, He can operate outside of logic and rationale, the point of boxing in our understanding of omnipotence is moot...

...which is the answer to the whole paradox to begin with.
1) You're right, my bad. "Dumb" was the word you actually used, not stupid.

Your assertion that omnipotence can't be limited was not adequately defended IMO.

The paradox shows that an omnipotent being (whatever being that may be) cannot be truly omnipotent. They either can or cannot limit themselves. The latter is a sign of not being omnipotent. The former shows that limits exist, and hence no the being is not omnipotent.

It's proof by contradiction, you assume something is omnipotent and show that it leads to a contradiction, which the paradox does - hence showing nothing can be omnipotent. Mathematicians use it all the time.

2) If the logic of this realm does not apply to God, then he cannot be a part of this realm, as anything that is a part of this realm would be bound by it's logic. God would have to be completely separate, or he would be trapped and not omnipotent.

Simply saying that the rules don't apply to God is special pleading of the highest order.


3) No, a discussion of God's omnipotence requires the ability to say "If God was omnipotent, then . . . ", and taking it to it's logical conclusion.

Accepting his omnipotence regardless of logical coherence means accepting the conclusion before the discussion takes place, rendering the discussion pointless, since all you are going to say is "but God is omnipotent, so nyeh!"

You argue that logic does not apply to an omnipotent being. The conclusion that should be drawn from that is "so there is no reason to believe in something that is omnipotent", not "fuck logic."

The only way to backup your claims is by irrefutable evidence of something God has done in the past that has broken the rules of logic (which means proving his existence first). Until then it must be assumed that he cannot do so and that he is not omnipotent. It is intellectually dishonest to do otherwise.

The only way out of the paradox is for God to create a rock that he simultaneously can and cannot lift, which I suppose is what Egor was trying to get at with all his alternate reality bull. Well I'll believe that when I see it.
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08-02-2013, 02:38 PM
 
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
The real question is whether God can create alternate realities or whether He is stuck to one. Because if He can, then he can create realities where He has various limitations. If He can't, then omnipotence becomes paradoxical. But what exactly is an "alternate reality"? And what kind of being would God have to be in order to create one? And what then does that tell us about God "The Father"?

This one discussion (the heavy rock) can lead us into great revelations about the nature of God, but why would atheists care? Seriously, talking about this when one side doesn't even believe in God and the other (KC) believes in a magical version of God is pointless. KC can take anything on faith, and the atheists can just say they refuse to believe it.

This conversation is meant for two people who actually believe in a real God.

In my ever-so-humble opinion.
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08-02-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
Egor. The door is at the top right hand corner of the screen. Do I have to show you where it is?

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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08-02-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
In a shocking turn of events, I agree with Egor.

It would be nice if all Christians could get together and all agree on what their arguments were once and for all, so we as atheists could then proceed to methodically shoot them down one at a time.

Of course, that's just wishful thinking. Christians agreeing with each other - now there would be a sight to see.
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08-02-2013, 05:40 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
I agree that the paradox is dumb.. or the question itself. Putting on a "limit" is something outside of being omnipotent.

The other near paradoxical question is: can an Omnipotent/Omniscient being make a mistake?

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08-02-2013, 06:11 PM
RE: God's Omnipotence - The heavy rock paradox
(08-02-2013 02:43 PM)hedgehog648 Wrote:  In a shocking turn of events, I agree with Egor.

It would be nice if all Christians could get together and all agree on what their arguments were once and for all, so we as atheists could then proceed to methodically shoot them down one at a time.

Of course, that's just wishful thinking. Christians agreeing with each other - now there would be a sight to see.
Well... it has been done. Almost every Christian argument can be summed up as one of these. Atheist arguments are also found on the same page.

I don't think that Christians have a problem "agreeing with each other" any more than atheists do, but at least your typical atheist has had more experience hearing the arguments and is unlikely to repeat one that Christians have heard ad nauseum (as often happens in reverse)... our arguments tend to be unpredictable in my humble opinion.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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