God's Three Big O's!
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04-08-2012, 10:19 AM
God's Three Big O's!
Omniscience:
It has long been state that God is all knowing. However, this creates many problems with other supposed traits of God. For example, if God is all knowing, then he knows the past, present and future. If he knows the future, then he has had fore-knowledge of every disaster, tragedy, murder, rape, death, war, etc. that has ever occurred. Therefor, he always chose not to intervene and prevent these terrible things from happening. How can a god who supposedly loves all humans allow 8 year old girls to be raped and murdered?

If god is all knowing, then free will is merely an illusion. If he knows exactly what every person will ever do or think or say, then it has somehow already determined before these things happen. How can we make a choice when somewhere, it is already known what choice will be made?

Additionally, if god is all knowing, then life is utterly meaningless and without meaning. Christians pride themselves on their lives devoted to god and assert that without god, existence is meaningless. However, if their god truly is omniscient, then there is no purpose to life, and here is why: If god already knows everything about you before you are born, he already knows whether you are going to heaven or hell. He knows what "sins" you will commit and exactly when and how you will die. His mind is already made up before you even came into existence! Therefore, your life is merely god letting you postpone the consequences for his predetermined judgement, based on an existence which he already knew every single second of.

Omnipresence:
As with omniscience, it is often claimed that God is omnipresent, that is, he is always everywhere. However, the Bible clearly says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen: 1) If god was always there, how could there be a beginning? If he is infinite, then there is no beginning and no end. If he is not within the same space-time fabric that the earth and humankind is, then how could he have any influence over that fabric?

Another problem with omnipresence is the prayer factor. As the Great Prayer Experiment suggests, prayers have no demonstrable effect on reality. If god is everywhere at once, then he easily should be able to hear everyone's prayers. I mean, if Santa can get in and out of every house in the world in one night, shouldn't god be able to hear everyone's prayers always?

Omnipotence:
God is though to be all powerful, having no limits in his ability to do something. A simple thought experiment points out a very big problem with the concept of omnipotence:

Imagine if you were to meet god, and he said you could ask him to do one thing. You ask him to create a stone so heavy, and not even he can lift it. If he successfully creates the stone, then he is not able to lift it, meaning he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create the stone, then that is a limit to his power, and he is not omnipotent.

I think this simple thought experiment alludes to the probability that nothing can be omnipotent, but that is another issue. An additionally example of the problem of omnipotence is the problem of evil. If god truly loves us, or even in a simple sense cares about his creation, and he is omnipotent, why does he allow such terrible things to occur in the world? It is impossible for him to be both omnipotent, and loving, as the existence of evil demonstrates either:
a) he does love his creations, but he cannot do anything about it because he is not omnipotent or
b) he could fix evil if he wanted, but he does not truly care about humankind enough to do so.

Of course, there is a third option, c) which is that god does not exist, which of course is my position. Regardless, the problems of omnipotence are clearly demonstrated.

Overall, this post is not designed to prove that there is no god. It is merely attempting to demonstrate that many of the characteristics that have been ascribed to god cannot possibly be true. They are logically contradicting, and unless you want to posit that god does not follow the rules of logic, then you cannot continue to describe your god with these various, conflicting traits.

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04-08-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 10:19 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  They are logically contradicting, and unless you want to posit that god does not follow the rules of logic, then you cannot continue to describe your god with these various, conflicting traits.
If you claim that god doesn't follow the rules of logic, then the concept of god becomes so abstract that it's pointless to believe in him anyway. Drinking Beverage

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04-08-2012, 10:31 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Well, the biblical version of God certainly isn't omniscient. Why ask questions that he already has the answers to?
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04-08-2012, 10:38 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 10:31 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Well, the biblical version of God certainly isn't omniscient. Why ask questions that he already has the answers to?

So confession booths could be created.
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04-08-2012, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2012 11:06 AM by Jeff.)
RE: God's Three Big O's!
screwed up, see below
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04-08-2012, 11:01 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 10:19 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  How can a god who supposedly loves all humans allow 8 year old girls to be raped and murdered?

If you think it's sick to worship the god you describe, you'll puke your guts out when you understand the following. There are many believers, including our own forum friend KingsChosen (sorry KC, see reasons you get cited from my earlier post elsewhere) who believe that God PLANS these rape/murders. He doesn't just know about them in advance - he decides that they will happen, to whom, by whom and when and where. Their concept of a god is an entity that decides how the 8-year old will be grabbed, how her clothes will be ripped off, which of several orifices will be penetrated, when and where the raper will cum, and then the method of the 8-year old's murder.

You may already be horrified by this, but here's the really disgusting part. On the Sunday after this rape/murder, KC and his like will go to church, taking their spouses and children, and WORSHIP THIS GOD. In fact, since they worship every day, they won't even wait until Sunday to do it.

If you doubt any of this, go to the "Ask a Theist" thread, ask KC some questions, and see if I've got it correct. Then you'll begin to understand the believing delusion.

Thank God!
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04-08-2012, 11:25 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 10:38 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  So confession booths could be created.

Well... Jesus was a carpenter...
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04-08-2012, 11:42 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
Omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence are the ways in which this "being" contradicts itself.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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04-08-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
God having the big O's makes much more sense if you just drop all logic and don't think about it. Although I have heard people say the bible where god is asking questions (that obviously he would know given what these people also believe about him), is god asking just for the sake of it, or just giving the person a chance to be honest (despite god also knowing what the response would be before asking). Or.... they say it's not god asking, it's satan.
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04-08-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
Pretty good analysis, FZ. The only problem is, theologians will argue that you're using human understanding to describe an ineffable being. It doesn't seem like love to our human understanding to create an 8 year old child to be raped and murdered, but we only see from a finite perspective.

Isaiah 55:8 essentially says, "God's ways are not our ways" and this is the argument that will be seen as sufficient to the Christian to ignore everything in your OP. Dodgy

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