God's Three Big O's!
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04-08-2012, 01:14 PM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 12:54 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  The Free Will issue shouldn't be that big of a deal to the atheist. Do any of us really think we have free will? We're kidding ourselves. As HoC so aptly likes to point out, we are all just big skin bags full of chemicals. No one has free will. Everything is determined by chemistry.
I have no problem with that, the problem I do have is when an outside agent( God,rainbow unicorns, etc) controls me.

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04-08-2012, 02:14 PM
God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 01:14 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 12:54 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  The Free Will issue shouldn't be that big of a deal to the atheist. Do any of us really think we have free will? We're kidding ourselves. As HoC so aptly likes to point out, we are all just big skin bags full of chemicals. No one has free will. Everything is determined by chemistry.
I have no problem with that, the problem I do have is when an outside agent( God,rainbow unicorns, etc) controls me.

I didn't know one did. Big Grin

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04-08-2012, 02:51 PM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
Given those properties of god and the one about being all loving, I have to wonder what would a god look like that was all-evil ?
Would there be no more famine, disease and pestilence ?
How would "the plan" change if the all loving god some believe we have now turned all-evil ?
Would there be equality and justice in the world ?

Would all of these evil deeds look like heaven to us ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-08-2012, 06:32 PM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 12:54 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  The Free Will issue shouldn't be that big of a deal to the atheist. Do any of us really think we have free will? We're kidding ourselves. As HoC so aptly likes to point out, we are all just big skin bags full of chemicals. No one has free will. Everything is determined by chemistry.
While we may not have much "free will" many of us seem to have choices between options which can be classified as minimal free will.

As for the three Os, these certainly make god seem impossible, grossly egocentric, evil, and tyranical based on the Chrisitan triple O formula.. Atheists/agnostics have formulated arguments that, in my view, refute god as described in this way.
If god knew all, why create great suffering for alleged aspects of himself in order to multiply his alleged perfection......this comes across as an oxymoron.
If god knew everything from a cosmic perspective his omnipresence need not be considered as is it covered by his omniscience.
As for omnipotence, an absolute font of knowledge would be stagnantly locked into his degree of knowledge, as, in order to go beyond it, the phenomenon would have to show lack which is not in keeping with the alleged omniscience.

The only god I can contemplate is an ever evolving creative force, geared to higher cosmic knowledge but in a state of perpetual flux rendering "perfection" contary to the flux as it would diminish future creative potential.....Drinking Beverage
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04-08-2012, 06:55 PM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 12:58 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 12:47 PM)kim Wrote:   "Fact": It was planned that humans eat from a "knowledge tree" so they would obtain another level of knowledge, without it they would never progress, they would never be able to take the next step beyond this being's control... this was part of the plan. Upon eating from this tree and accepting this "knowledge" humans see and accept "free will" - the acceptance itself is in fact choice. Of course, this choice has been directed so that everything could progress... according to plan.

FACT - If humans never ate from the tree of knowledge, they would eventually know everything there is to know anyways.

That's why we gotta get moving!!! We're behind schedule for the plan!! Thumbsup

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Uh... you guys do realize; for me, this is like discussing Star Trek, right? At least Star Trek had better writers. The only "fact" I can with any seriousness pose is: I have shit to do. So.... yea. Dodgy

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05-08-2012, 01:41 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 12:54 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  The Free Will issue shouldn't be that big of a deal to the atheist. Do any of us really think we have free will? We're kidding ourselves. As HoC so aptly likes to point out, we are all just big skin bags full of chemicals. No one has free will. Everything is determined by chemistry.

That comes down to how you define "free will". Christians typically define it as the ability to make choices as a being, which is understood as a soul or entity other than just an amalgamation of atoms.

In my view, you are your consciousness, the result of an arrangement of neurons. You are the chemistry that determines your actions. Not free will in the Christian sense though, but only in practical terms - you have the ability to make choices, which ones you make is determined by your brain and is influenced (not 100% determined) by the environment. However, even with perfect information about your environment and your preferences, no one could predict 100% accurately what choices you'd make - thus being a kind of "free will" in a way.

tl;dr - you = brain chemistry, brain chemistry = determiner of actions, ergo, you = determiner of actions.

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05-08-2012, 01:49 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 01:41 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 12:54 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  The Free Will issue shouldn't be that big of a deal to the atheist. Do any of us really think we have free will? We're kidding ourselves. As HoC so aptly likes to point out, we are all just big skin bags full of chemicals. No one has free will. Everything is determined by chemistry.

That comes down to how you define "free will". Christians typically define it as the ability to make choices as a being, which is understood as a soul or entity other than just an amalgamation of atoms.

In my view, you are your consciousness, the result of an arrangement of neurons. You are the chemistry that determines your actions. Not free will in the Christian sense though, but only in practical terms - you have the ability to make choices, which ones you make is determined by your brain and is influenced (not 100% determined) by the environment. However, even with perfect information about your environment and your preferences, no one could predict 100% accurately what choices you'd make - thus being a kind of "free will" in a way.

tl;dr - you = brain chemistry, brain chemistry = determiner of actions, ergo, you = determiner of actions.

I share this view.Thumbsup

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05-08-2012, 01:57 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 01:41 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  However, even with perfect information about your environment and your preferences, no one could predict 100% accurately what choices you'd make - thus being a kind of "free will" in a way.

In the monist model, that simply isn't true. If all of the information were available, you could certainly predict a choice. The level of detail would be immense - and would have to include a model of every neuron and synaptic pathway. It isn't practically possible, because the information is "difficult" to access... but the difficulty of an action doesn't make the process impossible.

In the dualist model, the mind and brain are separate entities - split between the physical and the non-physical. But, in the dualist model, you have to (metaphorically) explain how a ghost can drive a car.
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05-08-2012, 02:02 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 01:57 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(05-08-2012 01:41 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  However, even with perfect information about your environment and your preferences, no one could predict 100% accurately what choices you'd make - thus being a kind of "free will" in a way.

In the monist model, that simply isn't true. If all of the information were available, you could certainly predict a choice. The level of detail would be immense - and would have to include a model of every neuron and synaptic pathway. It isn't practically possible, because the information is "difficult" to access... but the difficulty of an action doesn't make the process impossible.

In the dualist model, the mind and brain are separate entities - split between the physical and the non-physical. But, in the dualist model, you have to (metaphorically) explain how a ghost can drive a car.

It may be theoretically possible to predict (if you ignore the predicting-itself problem), but IMO it's impossible in reality. Any computer that would be able to simulate the universe (it would need to in order to 100% accurately account for all inputs) would have to simulate itself (it would affect things too). Then you've got a big problem Big Grin How can a computer simulate itself simulating itself simulating itself...ad infinitum? Hint: I would argue 100% surety of ANYTHING is impossible.

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05-08-2012, 02:10 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 02:02 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  It may be theoretically possible to predict (if you ignore the predicting-itself problem), but IMO it's impossible in reality. Any computer that would be able to simulate the universe (it would need to in order to 100% accurately account for all inputs) would have to simulate itself (it would affect things too). Then you've got a big problem Big Grin How can a computer simulate itself simulating itself simulating itself...ad infinitum? Hint: I would argue 100% surety of ANYTHING is impossible.

Well, yes, you've touched on a point I was going to mention. In theory, the whole universe could be modelled by an immense computer... but that model would have to include the computer itself. Ideas like that make me emotionally erect.

At the human level, though, the detail required is much much much smaller. You just need the human brain and nothing else. All of the outside world is recorded by the sensory organs... and that recording ends up in neural pathways. If you know all of that... bingo-dingo, you have yourself a means of knowing the decision before it is made.
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