God's Three Big O's!
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05-08-2012, 02:13 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 02:10 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(05-08-2012 02:02 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  It may be theoretically possible to predict (if you ignore the predicting-itself problem), but IMO it's impossible in reality. Any computer that would be able to simulate the universe (it would need to in order to 100% accurately account for all inputs) would have to simulate itself (it would affect things too). Then you've got a big problem Big Grin How can a computer simulate itself simulating itself simulating itself...ad infinitum? Hint: I would argue 100% surety of ANYTHING is impossible.

Well, yes, you've touched on a point I was going to mention. In theory, the whole universe could be modelled by an immense computer... but that model would have to include the computer itself. Ideas like that make me emotionally erect.

At the human level, though, the detail required is much much much smaller. You just need the human brain and nothing else. All of the outside world is recorded by the sensory organs... and that recording ends up in neural pathways. If you know all of that... bingo-dingo, you have yourself a means of knowing the decision before it is made.
Look out guys, we are dealing with a smartass over here Smartass

Can you elaborate on this thing. I do not know anything about what you are proposing. I would like to know, though.

Prehaps in a private message?

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05-08-2012, 02:17 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 02:10 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(05-08-2012 02:02 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  It may be theoretically possible to predict (if you ignore the predicting-itself problem), but IMO it's impossible in reality. Any computer that would be able to simulate the universe (it would need to in order to 100% accurately account for all inputs) would have to simulate itself (it would affect things too). Then you've got a big problem Big Grin How can a computer simulate itself simulating itself simulating itself...ad infinitum? Hint: I would argue 100% surety of ANYTHING is impossible.

Well, yes, you've touched on a point I was going to mention. In theory, the whole universe could be modelled by an immense computer... but that model would have to include the computer itself. Ideas like that make me emotionally erect.

At the human level, though, the detail required is much much much smaller. You just need the human brain and nothing else. All of the outside world is recorded by the sensory organs... and that recording ends up in neural pathways. If you know all of that... bingo-dingo, you have yourself a means of knowing the decision before it is made.

Yes, but you've also got to account for what those senses will pick up and whether they will exist (I.e. not get killed). Otherwise you will be making assumptions, not 100% accurate predictions.

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05-08-2012, 02:22 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 02:13 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Look out guys, we are dealing with a smartass over here Smartass

Can you elaborate on this thing. I do not know anything about what you are proposing. I would like to know, though.

Prehaps in a private message?

Which part did you want expanding? I'm not a smartass. I just have an interest in certain things... and that includes the brain. Shy
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05-08-2012, 02:26 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 02:17 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  Yes, but you've also got to account for what those senses will pick up and whether they will exist (I.e. not get killed). Otherwise you will be making assumptions, not 100% accurate predictions.

Well, now we're just talking about time-frames. After they have passed through the senses, they're in the brain... and (as I've said) all you need is the brain. The predictive process will be very short-lived, but it is still predictive; even if it is in nanoseconds rather than seconds, minutes or months. Then you really would need to model on a bigger scale... at the galactic level, perhaps, not the whole universe.
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05-08-2012, 02:26 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 02:22 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(05-08-2012 02:13 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Look out guys, we are dealing with a smartass over here Smartass

Can you elaborate on this thing. I do not know anything about what you are proposing. I would like to know, though.

Prehaps in a private message?

Which part did you want expanding? I'm not a smartass. I just have an interest in certain things... and that includes the brain. Shy

The smartass thing was a joke!

More or less everything Smile I am interested, thats why I asked if a private message would be ok.

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05-08-2012, 02:38 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 02:26 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  The smartass thing was a joke!

More or less everything Smile I am interested, thats why I asked if a private message would be ok.

I grew up in a family where intelligence was seen as a bad thing and when I was a kid, some family members referred to me as The Professor. So I am a bit sensitive to terms like "smartass". Intelligence is a glorious thing and certainly isn't something to be ashamed of.

If you want to ask questions, feel free. This is a forum for such things, so you shouldn't be shy of asking in public. But PM if you'd prefer.
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05-08-2012, 07:13 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 12:58 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 12:47 PM)kim Wrote:   "Fact": It was planned that humans eat from a "knowledge tree" so they would obtain another level of knowledge, without it they would never progress, they would never be able to take the next step beyond this being's control... this was part of the plan. Upon eating from this tree and accepting this "knowledge" humans see and accept "free will" - the acceptance itself is in fact choice. Of course, this choice has been directed so that everything could progress... according to plan.

FACT - If humans never ate from the tree of knowledge, they would eventually know everything there is to know anyways.

FACT - There was never a tree of knowledge.

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05-08-2012, 08:55 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(04-08-2012 11:25 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 10:38 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  So confession booths could be created.

Well... Jesus was a carpenter...

I thought Jesus was the gardener......?

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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05-08-2012, 09:24 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 01:57 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(05-08-2012 01:41 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  However, even with perfect information about your environment and your preferences, no one could predict 100% accurately what choices you'd make - thus being a kind of "free will" in a way.

In the monist model, that simply isn't true. If all of the information were available, you could certainly predict a choice. The level of detail would be immense - and would have to include a model of every neuron and synaptic pathway. It isn't practically possible, because the information is "difficult" to access... but the difficulty of an action doesn't make the process impossible.

In the dualist model, the mind and brain are separate entities - split between the physical and the non-physical. But, in the dualist model, you have to (metaphorically) explain how a ghost can drive a car.
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06-08-2012, 01:03 AM
RE: God's Three Big O's!
(05-08-2012 08:55 AM)ddrew Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 11:25 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  Well... Jesus was a carpenter...

I thought Jesus was the gardener......?

Nah, Jesus was just some stoner-slacker, backpacking through the east. His step dad Joseph was a carpenter, though. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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