God's Wager
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29-11-2014, 06:16 PM
God's Wager
I don't understand why Christians (and any other deity-driven religion) can't see this logical flaw, and what I will propose kind of turns Pascal's Wager on its head in a different way. In the wager, we are told to just believe anyway just in case because while we may give up a human life of freedom, we'll have an eternal afterlife.

Let's suppose there is a god, and for familiarity we'll use YHWH or the big JC. In the grand scheme of things, the lifespan of a human being is but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of time when compared with eternity, yes? Why would any deity, who reportedly has been in existence forever and will be around forever, be concerned with humans believing he's real while we're on earth?

When you consider the alternative, that after death your soul would be eternal and could then be shown that god exists, you would clearly be a believer then and the payoff for god's ginormous ego would be limitless. Why would he leave it up to some shoddy book, a small population of uneducated goat-herders and the ensuing molesters and thieves to provide his proof? And for that matter, if he loves being worshipped or believed in, why wouldn't he just give us a choice after we died? Wouldn't he reveal himself to us and say, "It's me, believe or not?"

He would have so many believers and it would be for eternity. If he's truly the insecure egomaniac he's portrayed as in the bible, wouldn't he forgive "just in case" and reap the benefits of eternal belief by giving us proof after death? We'll call it God's Wager.

If you ask a believer this simple question, they'll say, "God is all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason. He's all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason."

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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29-11-2014, 09:11 PM
RE: God's Wager
The story is childish but the human ego can't let it go.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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29-11-2014, 09:46 PM
RE: God's Wager
(29-11-2014 06:16 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  If you ask a believer this simple question, they'll say, "God is all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason. He's all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason."

Did you make this thread just so you could make that reference?

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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29-11-2014, 10:40 PM
RE: God's Wager
(29-11-2014 09:46 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  
(29-11-2014 06:16 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  If you ask a believer this simple question, they'll say, "God is all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason. He's all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason."

Did you make this thread just so you could make that reference?

Lol. No, as I was writing that line I actually just wrote that he would be about faith, and as I read it back in my head I heard that stupid song, so I figured one stupid thing relates to another.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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30-11-2014, 01:54 AM
RE: God's Wager
(29-11-2014 06:16 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I don't understand why Christians (and any other deity-driven religion) can't see this logical flaw, and what I will propose kind of turns Pascal's Wager on its head in a different way. In the wager, we are told to just believe anyway just in case because while we may give up a human life of freedom, we'll have an eternal afterlife.

Let's suppose there is a god, and for familiarity we'll use YHWH or the big JC. In the grand scheme of things, the lifespan of a human being is but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of time when compared with eternity, yes? Why would any deity, who reportedly has been in existence forever and will be around forever, be concerned with humans believing he's real while we're on earth?

When you consider the alternative, that after death your soul would be eternal and could then be shown that god exists, you would clearly be a believer then and the payoff for god's ginormous ego would be limitless. Why would he leave it up to some shoddy book, a small population of uneducated goat-herders and the ensuing molesters and thieves to provide his proof? And for that matter, if he loves being worshipped or believed in, why wouldn't he just give us a choice after we died? Wouldn't he reveal himself to us and say, "It's me, believe or not?"

He would have so many believers and it would be for eternity. If he's truly the insecure egomaniac he's portrayed as in the bible, wouldn't he forgive "just in case" and reap the benefits of eternal belief by giving us proof after death? We'll call it God's Wager.

If you ask a believer this simple question, they'll say, "God is all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason. He's all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason."

How many posts have I seen of Atheists lamenting the ignorance of Christians employing Pascals Wager? Perhaps you should wonder why you are so confused?
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30-11-2014, 02:07 AM
RE: God's Wager
(30-11-2014 01:54 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  How many posts have I seen of Atheists lamenting the ignorance of Christians employing Pascals Wager?

I'm unsure as to how many threads you've seen in regards to atheists lamenting things. Wink

*Makes sure to gnash teeth in future for extra effects. * Wink

(30-11-2014 01:54 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  Perhaps you should wonder why you are so confused?

Personally I'm not confused, either.

I just don't see enough (As defined by 'any') evidence for gods. To then think about maybe worshiping something... just on the off chance that it might, possibly exist? Yah, I find that weird but not confusing.

Much cheers to all.
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30-11-2014, 02:26 AM
RE: God's Wager
(29-11-2014 06:16 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I don't understand why Christians (and any other deity-driven religion) can't see this logical flaw, and what I will propose kind of turns Pascal's Wager on its head in a different way. In the wager, we are told to just believe anyway just in case because while we may give up a human life of freedom, we'll have an eternal afterlife.

Let's suppose there is a god, and for familiarity we'll use YHWH or the big JC. In the grand scheme of things, the lifespan of a human being is but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of time when compared with eternity, yes? Why would any deity, who reportedly has been in existence forever and will be around forever, be concerned with humans believing he's real while we're on earth?

Lemme put on the Christian hat so I can answer those!

To test us if we are good people and if we deserve to worship him for all eternity or burn in a fire for all eternity which we CHOOSE to do so either one way or another.

Quote:When you consider the alternative, that after death your soul would be eternal and could then be shown that god exists, you would clearly be a believer then and the payoff for god's ginormous ego would be limitless. Why would he leave it up to some shoddy book, a small population of uneducated goat-herders and the ensuing molesters and thieves to provide his proof? And for that matter, if he loves being worshipped or believed in, why wouldn't he just give us a choice after we died? Wouldn't he reveal himself to us and say, "It's me, believe or not?"
Because blah blah blah. Those people were actually MUCH more intelligent than we are today! Compared to people back than because of reason X, we are becoming even more dumb every generation. Those people were genius levels making us today look like lobotomized retard fruit flies! Oh, and they never did rape or anything like that because any "real" Christian would never do that.

Also, Mysterious ways! If you read that book, it tells you all the times he has revealed himself through prophecies and witnesses that SAW those things the book tells you they saw. What more proof do you need? Are you so blind to the truth and hate god so much that you just wanna lie about not seeing the truth so you can keep sinning?

Quote:He would have so many believers and it would be for eternity. If he's truly the insecure egomaniac he's portrayed as in the bible, wouldn't he forgive "just in case" and reap the benefits of eternal belief by giving us proof after death? We'll call it God's Wager.

If you ask a believer this simple question, they'll say, "God is all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason. He's all about that faith, 'bout that faith, no reason."

Only the worthy are allowed in. Faith is gods number one virtue. Its what gets you into paradise donchaknow

.......my brain feels funny. I am getting this strange pulsating feeling in the sides of my heads like blood pumping through it....weird...I wonder if that is the sensation of my brain cells dying for what I just had written?


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30-11-2014, 02:34 AM
RE: God's Wager
(30-11-2014 01:54 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  How many posts have I seen of Atheists lamenting the ignorance of Christians employing Pascals Wager? Perhaps you should wonder why you are so confused?





Even ignoring probability and logic, one has to wonder at those who think that taking out a fire-insurance policy with an all-knowing being then assuming it'll be too stupid to notice the mercenary nature of the bet, will somehow work out all right?

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30-11-2014, 03:43 AM
RE: God's Wager
I create worlds of artificial agents all the time. I evolve them. They have neural networks filled with neurochemicals, drives to consume the resources I give them, rewards from doing so and they learn within their environment. I am trying to create certain features of intelligence such as temporal sequence learning, vision processing, memory and the ability to adapt to the internal state of their own neural networks (i.e. self awareness).

If I knew how to I would make them as intelligent as the available processing power allows me to. I would then be a God to them. I created them. I could write the code to manipulate their individual existences. I could demand that they worship me.

But why would I want to?
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30-11-2014, 04:09 AM
RE: God's Wager
(30-11-2014 02:07 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Personally I'm not confused, either.

I just don't see enough (As defined by 'any') evidence for gods. To then think about maybe worshiping something... just on the off chance that it might, possibly exist? Yah, I find that weird but not confusing.

Much cheers to all.

For pascals its just math that he is trying to use, but he mixes it with nonmath.

Say that worshiping a god made you end up with an eternity of torment. Perhaps you go to a heaven if you don't worship. Pascal presents this in a way that appear to be pure math, but in reality he doesn't take into account all possible outcomes. The opposite of a heaven for worship concept isn't nothing, its going to hell for worshiping... or heaven for not worshiping.
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