"God's perfect plan."
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18-06-2012, 07:06 PM
"God's perfect plan."
Not to be disrespectful to KC... I think he is the nicest theist I know, but there is something greatly annoying, or stupid when he says something along with the title of this thread.

This is just my rant on this subject, So if you don't want to read, feel free to just comment.
Everytime I see this phrase, or when KC alludes to it, I want to tear my hair out. I want to scream
At the computer because I am greatly annoyed at this simple thing.
First of all, it is irrefutable. There is absolutely no way to deny this while backing it up with evidence, because there is none that can be exempt from this phrase.

I use an analogy.... A guy knows, or at least greatly infers that there is no cake coming in his lifetime, but his one friend keeps insisting that a cake will come eventually. No matter how much the person can argue about the cake, he can't prove that it won't come. Especially if the other person makes it ambigious enough. What I am trying to convey is the constant ambigity of this phrase... The simple part of how it can't be refuted, and is pointless to try.

Now, KC thinks life is preplanned by God, so Freewill is out of the window... Trying to prove freewill is about the same as the cake thing either, it isn't possible.( Freewill in the sense most of us are accustomed to.)

This is one of the reasons why I hate KC's theology. It takes away the responsiblity anyone bears for their actions. By saying that God made them do it,or he "Planned " it, takes away all responsiblity that person has for his actions, good or bad.

Essentially, Hitler is completely innocent of the Holocaust, because it was God that planned him to do it. Does anybody but me see how monstorious this idea can be? This also takes away the ery good things humans deserve credit for, like discoveries, or charity, or love.

It strips humanity of all it's deeds, and makes them unaccountable for their own actions.... This is an immoral thought, especially if any immoral person would adopt it.

Could you imagine Hitler saying such a thing?

I don't know... I just find it very frustrating when you see this type of view and are powerless to at least combat it......

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18-06-2012, 07:17 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
It is possible to refute, because if you believe the bible God has told us his intended end state. A few people go to heaven and worship him forever without the ability to sin anymore, while everyone else suffers eternally. If now is not perfect (at least by human standards) and then will not be perfect (at least by human standards), then by human standards neither that god or God's plan is perfect.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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18-06-2012, 07:21 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(18-06-2012 07:17 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  It is possible to refute, because if you believe the bible God has told us his intended end state. A few people go to heaven and worship him forever without the ability to sin anymore, while everyone else suffers eternally. If now is not perfect (at least by human standards) and then will not be perfect (at least by human standards), then by human standards neither that god or God's plan is perfect.
I'll respond as KC:

God can't be judged by Human standards because God is Soverein. God's plan is perfect by his own standards;therefore, because God is superior, His standards are perfect.

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18-06-2012, 07:38 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(18-06-2012 07:21 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(18-06-2012 07:17 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  It is possible to refute, because if you believe the bible God has told us his intended end state. A few people go to heaven and worship him forever without the ability to sin anymore, while everyone else suffers eternally. If now is not perfect (at least by human standards) and then will not be perfect (at least by human standards), then by human standards neither that god or God's plan is perfect.
I'll respond as KC:

God can't be judged by Human standards because God is Soverein. God's plan is perfect by his own standards;therefore, because God is superior, His standards are perfect.
Of course that theology is repugnant, but mostly it's just silly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-06-2012, 07:38 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
Sure, but they aren't standards that humans accept. They may be perfect, just as the elimination of all life to extinguish suffering is "perfect" in its own way. All this statement of "perfect but actually abhorrent to us" means is that the god is alien. So what we are saying then is that we aren't made in god's image then? If we were then surely this god's morality wouldn't be so alien to us.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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18-06-2012, 07:42 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(18-06-2012 07:38 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Sure, but they aren't standards that humans accept. They may be perfect, just as the elimination of all life to extinguish suffering is "perfect" in its own way. All this statement of "perfect but actually abhorrent to us" means is that the god is alien. So what we are saying then is that we aren't made in god's image then? If we were then surely this god's morality wouldn't be so alien to us.
Good point, bro.... Thumbsup Though I am at a loss as to how KC could respond.

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18-06-2012, 07:44 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
Well, it seems God pulled the ultimate Xanatos Gambit.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Ma...atosGambit

Quote:A Xanatos Gambit is a plan whose multiple foreseen outcomes all benefit its creator. It's a win-win situation for whoever plots it. At its most basic, the Xanatos Gambit assumes two possible outcomes for the one manipulated — success or failure. The plan is designed in such a way that either outcome will ultimately further the plotter's goals. The only way to escape a Xanatos Gambit once you're caught up in one is by somehow foiling both presented options and leaving the organizer thoroughly beaten.
[Image: XanatosGambitDiagram_7509.jpg]

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18-06-2012, 07:46 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
I feel your pain, it is annoying.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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18-06-2012, 07:51 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(18-06-2012 07:44 PM)robotworld Wrote:  Well, it seems God pulled the ultimate Xanatos Gambit.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Ma...atosGambit

Quote:A Xanatos Gambit is a plan whose multiple foreseen outcomes all benefit its creator. It's a win-win situation for whoever plots it. At its most basic, the Xanatos Gambit assumes two possible outcomes for the one manipulated — success or failure. The plan is designed in such a way that either outcome will ultimately further the plotter's goals. The only way to escape a Xanatos Gambit once you're caught up in one is by somehow foiling both presented options and leaving the organizer thoroughly beaten.
[Image: XanatosGambitDiagram_7509.jpg]
Light Yagami from Death Note uses such methods.I am well aware of this, lol.

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18-06-2012, 07:52 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
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Just Perfect!
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