"God's perfect plan."
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26-06-2012, 05:17 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(26-06-2012 05:04 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  May pop in again, quite some time later, when I feel a bit better........by then I imagine K.C will be up in the 70s.

Good luck and enjoy the forum.......................Mr Woof~~~
Hey Woof... if you must go, then go well Smile I hope you won't be able to stay away for long Smile
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26-06-2012, 10:28 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(26-06-2012 05:04 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Good luck and enjoy the forum.......................Mr Woof~~~

Hug Be well.

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27-06-2012, 09:10 AM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
For those that asked "Why did God create just to destroy?"

I answered it in the other thread:

(25-06-2012 07:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.

(27-06-2012 08:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That's under the assumption that humanity is as important as Christ. It isn't. Humanity happened because of Christ; therefore, we don't hold as much significance as we think we do. That being said, if God granted full justice then none of us would stand a chance; however, since He also grants grace, He chose to save some of us.

If He just stopped the damned from being born, then there would be no distinction from elect and non-elect and no consequences: which means, that salvation is pointless ergo Christ is pointless.

God created Hell because there needed to be a place for the damned. There needed to be the damned because of Christ's purpose.

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27-06-2012, 09:11 AM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(26-06-2012 05:09 PM)Magoo Wrote:  If everything is caused by God, and God controls everything, then the voice in my head is not me, it is God, you are God, my dog is God, the banana in my fruit bowl is God. The scientific discovers made by man, were not by man, because God is man.

That's called Pantheism and is vastly different from what I believe.

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27-06-2012, 05:27 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that a handful of people could go to heaven to be with him while billions suffer eternal torment for the only sin that exists: Not believing what God has worked so hard to conceal and make a nonsense, the idea that he exists.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-06-2012, 05:31 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(27-06-2012 09:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(26-06-2012 05:09 PM)Magoo Wrote:  If everything is caused by God, and God controls everything, then the voice in my head is not me, it is God, you are God, my dog is God, the banana in my fruit bowl is God. The scientific discovers made by man, were not by man, because God is man.

That's called Pantheism and is vastly different from what I believe.
Pantheism is not that God is in everything, it is that God is the universe. They do not believe in a personal God.

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27-06-2012, 05:47 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2012 06:07 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(27-06-2012 09:10 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  For those that asked "Why did God create just to destroy?"

I answered it in the other thread:

(25-06-2012 07:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  The one inconsistency is in Calvinism itself. I agree that it makes some things fit (after all, if God is outside of time, he knows before you're born if you'll be saved) but it's in-congruent with ideas such as God's justice. Is it fair to allow people to be born if you know they're just going to Hell? If you were omnipotent, wouldn't you just stop them from being born in the first place? I think God would have to be evil to set up a place like Hell as a deterrent, knowing full well that it won't deter most.

(27-06-2012 08:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That's under the assumption that humanity is as important as Christ. It isn't. Humanity happened because of Christ; therefore, we don't hold as much significance as we think we do. That being said, if God granted full justice then none of us would stand a chance; however, since He also grants grace, He chose to save some of us.

If He just stopped the damned from being born, then there would be no distinction from elect and non-elect and no consequences: which means, that salvation is pointless ergo Christ is pointless.

God created Hell because there needed to be a place for the damned. There needed to be the damned because of Christ's purpose.
Ow! My logic center hurts!

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27-06-2012, 07:29 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
Quote: That's under the
assumption that humanity is as important as Christ. It isn't. Humanity
happened because of Christ; therefore, we don't hold as much
significance as we think we do. That being said, if God granted full
justice then none of us would stand a chance; however, since He also
grants grace, He chose to save some of us.



If He just stopped the damned from being born, then there would be no
distinction from elect and non-elect and no consequences: which means,
that salvation is pointless ergo Christ is pointless.



God created Hell because there needed to be a place for the damned. There needed to be the damned because of Christ's purpose.
So what you are saying is that God created hell to make a distinction between good and evil?
I was under the impression he is omnipotent, why does God need such a mechanism to know right from wrong if he is all knowing?

And if not him, to teach us? But we don't know until we die so how can that be a lesson for us during life?
Why not just instill the knowledge of what is good and what is evil in us in the first place. There is no point for evil if you can only create good, if someone had a choice and still choice to create evil we would call that psychotic. What is the point in murder, rape, war etc.. God cares enough to kill us off with a great flood to save us from bad things or sends his son for our sins but does absolutely nothing during 1914-1945?

And if humanity isn't important to God then why create them? Seems rather pointless to me. He created us, he gave us the bible, sent things to save our sins etc.. seemingly intervened many times (Moses as another example). How can you say he doesn't care? Sure he probably doesn't care after the period in which the bible was written but again I thought he was all powerful, shouldn't someone perfect not just "get bored"?

And again, if he doesn't care why pray? why go to church? why teach people on Sundays? Why do we even have to believe in him in the first place if he doesn't care? The bible says the only way to heaven is through his salvation or whatever. So the only way through the pearly gates is to recognize he exists? Sounds like a 2year old wanting mommy and daddy's attention if you ask me. Not someone who doesn't care.

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27-06-2012, 07:31 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(18-06-2012 07:17 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  It is possible to refute, because if you believe the bible God has told us his intended end state. A few people go to heaven and worship him forever without the ability to sin anymore, while everyone else suffers eternally.

This raises a question that I really wrestled with before I completely lost faith in The Bible and began to identify as agnostic: Biblically speaking, is sin really not possible in Heaven? We're told that Lucifer was an angel who resided in heaven with God but comitted the sin of desiring equality with, or superiority to, God. He was thus kicked out of Heaven and assigned the uber-permanent position of torturing souls for eternity. Now, if one believes that God is never-changing, it only follows that sin is still POSSIBLE in Heaven--just as it was in Lucifer's day--only it isn't TOLERATED. In other words, one strike and you're out. To me, that seemed like entirely too much pressure to qualify Heaven s a paradise.

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27-06-2012, 07:55 PM
RE: "God's perfect plan."
(27-06-2012 07:31 PM)impr0vise Wrote:  
(18-06-2012 07:17 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  It is possible to refute, because if you believe the bible God has told us his intended end state. A few people go to heaven and worship him forever without the ability to sin anymore, while everyone else suffers eternally.

This raises a question that I really wrestled with before I completely lost faith in The Bible and began to identify as agnostic: Biblically speaking, is sin really not possible in Heaven? We're told that Lucifer was an angel who resided in heaven with God but comitted the sin of desiring equality with, or superiority to, God. He was thus kicked out of Heaven and assigned the uber-permanent position of torturing souls for eternity. Now, if one believes that God is never-changing, it only follows that sin is still POSSIBLE in Heaven--just as it was in Lucifer's day--only it isn't TOLERATED. In other words, one strike and you're out. To me, that seemed like entirely too much pressure to qualify Heaven s a paradise.
slow down son, we can't have rational logic now can we.

But I think the idea is that non-sinners who go to heaven continue to be non-sinners in heaven thus a place free of sin
which of course comes back to, WHY NOT JUST DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

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