God's pledge of eternal salvation
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20-01-2012, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2012 02:29 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
(20-01-2012 02:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  I think what they say in response is:

1. OK we accept that God wrote the Bible and ostensibly this means you go to heaven.
2. BUT do you really trust this capricious God to follow his own Bible to the letter?

Problem for me is it's kinda easy to predict what will be said in response to this:

"Of course, absolutely. In James 3 vs 13 it says 'I the LORD will always follow my word exactly. This is my true word.'"...

(Plz note I not know what James 3 vs 13 really says Tongue )

13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.
(20-01-2012 02:18 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  KC arent you scared of going to muslim hell?
did you know that muslims have a boner for jesus too?
but in their version jesus endorses mohammed as gods latest candidate
but muslims think jesus will have a second coming too Smile
high time you might wanna reconsider your theology

I believe what I feel is truth.

/shrug

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20-01-2012, 02:43 PM
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
Holy crap! There really is a James 3 vs 13 Smile
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20-01-2012, 02:52 PM
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
(20-01-2012 02:43 PM)morondog Wrote:  Holy crap! There really is a James 3 vs 13 Smile

lol and it's a pretty good verse, too.

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20-01-2012, 02:53 PM
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
(20-01-2012 02:29 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

It is always a question of sola fides, eh, bro? In faith alone, know that all my works are good. Wink

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20-01-2012, 02:58 PM
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
(20-01-2012 01:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 01:07 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 09:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ummm, yes "because the Bible so" is a VALID answer. You can't say, "Hey, you know that stuff that's said in that book that you believe is infallible... yeah, what if, it isn't true and God does something different?"

The Bible clearly defines what is going to happen and how it ends... and it lasts for eternity.

This is a pet peeve of mine... you start a theological debate and throw theology out the door and say that theology isn't valid. It's a trap topic.

So saying "because Mohammed said so" and "because Moroni said so" are VALID answers? At what point does it become invalid? "Because Zeus said so?" "Because Crom said so?"

Okay... let me break this down...

(20-01-2012 06:45 AM)jimmygun Wrote:  My question to those that hope for eternal salvation is...Why do you assume that god won't change his mind and allow rebellion in heaven as he did with Lucifer? If that scene is repeated then all bets are off again.

These concepts to an atheist:

1) Eternal salvation = false
2) God = false
3) Rebellion in heaven = false
4) Lucifer = false

All these concepts come from the Bible which atheists believe is false.


However, the question is being asked as if these concepts are true; therefore, giving the Bible validity.

The WHOLE basis of this conversation is on whether or not the Bible is believed to be true or not.

Since the question asker asked this question, we enter into the assumption that the authoritative source for the question is the Bible.

So, if the Bible says contrary to the asked question, then there doesn't need to be anymore discussion; moreover, defeating any other type of argument since the authority says differently.

Again... you can't ask a theological question and refuse theology.

If the question is whether or not the Bible is true, then you can't use the Bible as a definitive reference. That is totally illogical.
You have to test the contents of the Bible against reality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-01-2012, 03:05 PM
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
(20-01-2012 02:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 01:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 01:07 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 09:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ummm, yes "because the Bible so" is a VALID answer. You can't say, "Hey, you know that stuff that's said in that book that you believe is infallible... yeah, what if, it isn't true and God does something different?"

The Bible clearly defines what is going to happen and how it ends... and it lasts for eternity.

This is a pet peeve of mine... you start a theological debate and throw theology out the door and say that theology isn't valid. It's a trap topic.

So saying "because Mohammed said so" and "because Moroni said so" are VALID answers? At what point does it become invalid? "Because Zeus said so?" "Because Crom said so?"

Okay... let me break this down...

(20-01-2012 06:45 AM)jimmygun Wrote:  My question to those that hope for eternal salvation is...Why do you assume that god won't change his mind and allow rebellion in heaven as he did with Lucifer? If that scene is repeated then all bets are off again.

These concepts to an atheist:

1) Eternal salvation = false
2) God = false
3) Rebellion in heaven = false
4) Lucifer = false

All these concepts come from the Bible which atheists believe is false.


However, the question is being asked as if these concepts are true; therefore, giving the Bible validity.

The WHOLE basis of this conversation is on whether or not the Bible is believed to be true or not.

Since the question asker asked this question, we enter into the assumption that the authoritative source for the question is the Bible.

So, if the Bible says contrary to the asked question, then there doesn't need to be anymore discussion; moreover, defeating any other type of argument since the authority says differently.

Again... you can't ask a theological question and refuse theology.

If the question is whether or not the Bible is true, then you can't use the Bible as a definitive reference. That is totally illogical.
You have to test the contents of the Bible against reality.

But the validity of the Bible isn't the question. It was a question regarding the contents of the Bible.

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20-01-2012, 03:12 PM
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
According to the bible...

Eternal salvation = promised
God = promise maker
Lucifer = real
Rebellion in heaven = happened

Either god allowed the rebellion to happen and unleashed evil or he was unaware and evil broke free.

Again, according to the bible, the unchanging god allowed heaven to change, created earth and man (perfect), booted man from eden, allowed man to populate the earth, destroyed all living things on the earth (save those on the ark) allowed man to repopulate the earth, allowed Sodom and Gamorah to get so evil that he destroyed them both, and on and on and on.

I am not challenging what the bible says, I am asking, why would you trust a god that is so very fickle that he continues to screw up or allow the screw ups to happen time and time again.

You trust your god because you trust your god is not an answer.
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20-01-2012, 03:21 PM
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
(20-01-2012 03:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 02:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 01:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 01:07 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 09:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ummm, yes "because the Bible so" is a VALID answer. You can't say, "Hey, you know that stuff that's said in that book that you believe is infallible... yeah, what if, it isn't true and God does something different?"

The Bible clearly defines what is going to happen and how it ends... and it lasts for eternity.

This is a pet peeve of mine... you start a theological debate and throw theology out the door and say that theology isn't valid. It's a trap topic.

So saying "because Mohammed said so" and "because Moroni said so" are VALID answers? At what point does it become invalid? "Because Zeus said so?" "Because Crom said so?"

Okay... let me break this down...

(20-01-2012 06:45 AM)jimmygun Wrote:  My question to those that hope for eternal salvation is...Why do you assume that god won't change his mind and allow rebellion in heaven as he did with Lucifer? If that scene is repeated then all bets are off again.

These concepts to an atheist:

1) Eternal salvation = false
2) God = false
3) Rebellion in heaven = false
4) Lucifer = false

All these concepts come from the Bible which atheists believe is false.


However, the question is being asked as if these concepts are true; therefore, giving the Bible validity.

The WHOLE basis of this conversation is on whether or not the Bible is believed to be true or not.

Since the question asker asked this question, we enter into the assumption that the authoritative source for the question is the Bible.

So, if the Bible says contrary to the asked question, then there doesn't need to be anymore discussion; moreover, defeating any other type of argument since the authority says differently.

Again... you can't ask a theological question and refuse theology.

If the question is whether or not the Bible is true, then you can't use the Bible as a definitive reference. That is totally illogical.
You have to test the contents of the Bible against reality.

But the validity of the Bible isn't the question. It was a question regarding the contents of the Bible.

Which you still have to test against something other than the Bible. The Bible can agree with itself all day long, but that says nothing about its validity.

The Lord of the Rings is internally consistent.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-01-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
(20-01-2012 02:29 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 02:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  I think what they say in response is:

1. OK we accept that God wrote the Bible and ostensibly this means you go to heaven.
2. BUT do you really trust this capricious God to follow his own Bible to the letter?

Problem for me is it's kinda easy to predict what will be said in response to this:

"Of course, absolutely. In James 3 vs 13 it says 'I the LORD will always follow my word exactly. This is my true word.'"...

(Plz note I not know what James 3 vs 13 really says Tongue )

13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.
(20-01-2012 02:18 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  KC arent you scared of going to muslim hell?
did you know that muslims have a boner for jesus too?
but in their version jesus endorses mohammed as gods latest candidate
but muslims think jesus will have a second coming too Smile
high time you might wanna reconsider your theology

I believe what I feel is truth.

/shrug


i feel that the universe is 10 years old and we were all created 10 years ago with previous memories and experiences and a ready made aged universe
just so The One can test our faith, he also whispers to me and i feel his presence and hes telling me that we that not only should marjuana be legal
it should aslo be free and mandatory in schools on the sabbath (tuesday)
and The One sent down his only pet puppy for us so he can teach puppies
The One's will so they could go to puppy heaven, and if humans are good more puppies will go to heaven, but theres no heaven for humans, since we only exist to provide for the puppies. The Grand Puppy became roadkill for our sins! and The Grand Puppy is one of a Quintinity of gods in one,
The One, The Grand Puppy, The Magic Lolcat, The Spectral Animal Control Agent and Dr. House (the tv series is based on a true story).
I know this because i feel their presence inside of me and i cant help but feel that it's true.

^what KC sounds like to me *giggle*

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20-01-2012, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2012 03:32 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: God's pledge of eternal salvation
(20-01-2012 03:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 03:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 02:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 01:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 01:07 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  So saying "because Mohammed said so" and "because Moroni said so" are VALID answers? At what point does it become invalid? "Because Zeus said so?" "Because Crom said so?"

Okay... let me break this down...

(20-01-2012 06:45 AM)jimmygun Wrote:  My question to those that hope for eternal salvation is...Why do you assume that god won't change his mind and allow rebellion in heaven as he did with Lucifer? If that scene is repeated then all bets are off again.

These concepts to an atheist:

1) Eternal salvation = false
2) God = false
3) Rebellion in heaven = false
4) Lucifer = false

All these concepts come from the Bible which atheists believe is false.


However, the question is being asked as if these concepts are true; therefore, giving the Bible validity.

The WHOLE basis of this conversation is on whether or not the Bible is believed to be true or not.

Since the question asker asked this question, we enter into the assumption that the authoritative source for the question is the Bible.

So, if the Bible says contrary to the asked question, then there doesn't need to be anymore discussion; moreover, defeating any other type of argument since the authority says differently.

Again... you can't ask a theological question and refuse theology.

If the question is whether or not the Bible is true, then you can't use the Bible as a definitive reference. That is totally illogical.
You have to test the contents of the Bible against reality.

But the validity of the Bible isn't the question. It was a question regarding the contents of the Bible.

Which you still have to test against something other than the Bible. The Bible can agree with itself all day long, but that says nothing about its validity.

The Lord of the Rings is internally consistent.

So, by your logic you could argue that if Frodo met Obi Wan instead of of Gandalf then the Ring would have never made it to Mordor because Frodo would have been fighting on Endor? And, this could be genuinely argued against LOTR lore?
(20-01-2012 03:12 PM)jimmygun Wrote:  According to the bible...

Eternal salvation = promised
God = promise maker
Lucifer = real
Rebellion in heaven = happened

Either god allowed the rebellion to happen and unleashed evil or he was unaware and evil broke free.

Again, according to the bible, the unchanging god allowed heaven to change, created earth and man (perfect), booted man from eden, allowed man to populate the earth, destroyed all living things on the earth (save those on the ark) allowed man to repopulate the earth, allowed Sodom and Gamorah to get so evil that he destroyed them both, and on and on and on.

I am not challenging what the bible says, I am asking, why would you trust a god that is so very fickle that he continues to screw up or allow the screw ups to happen time and time again.

You trust your god because you trust your god is not an answer.

So, the question actually is, "Christians: if you God is unchanging, then how did Lucifer rebel?"

As a Calvinist I would respond, "Because this was a part of God's plan that was planned before the beginning. There is no free will."

As an Arminian I would respond, "God knew it would happen, but He still gave Lucifer free will. Since God knew what Lucifer would do, He had a plan to counteract Lucifer's free will."

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