God says I can kill my kids.
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30-01-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
All,

THIS is exciting! THIS is what I mean by "I come to TTA to teach, to learn and to have fun." I've told hundreds of Christians, "If you dare visit TTA they are not going to accept your tired old apologetics and the atheists will really pick at whatever bones are thrown..."

So NOW I have a little "juice" in my Bible study for the afternoon. I'll try to show you what I mean by "we read different Bibles because Christians (and Pharisees) are supposed to savor every word, not just every sentence, dig in with context and whatever Talmud/Torah/Prophets/Mishna and fundies and atheists have to say:

All ask The Q, "Can I kill my kids now? What kind of kid was this?"

Answers - and THANK YOU for making me REALLY look at the passage rather than spew out the same, tired old apologetics - it really enlivens my personal Bible study (!):

*Verse 18: A man has a rebellious son he wants to have publicly killed, like the way the Father condemned Jesus for sin publicly as stubborn and rebellious (pride and sin) - we have a picture of Jesus in verse 18. Great.

*the "kid" won't obey father or mother - so this was a two-parent home and so this wasn't some runaway from a broken home who needs help and succor--this is a rebel

*they have chastened him, that is, he was disciplined for wrongdoing but still rebellious

*there wasn't an abusive mother and a soft father or vice versa - there wasn't one parent trying to kill a kid for an inheritance or theft - both parents had been in run-ins with their son

*Verse 19 - the elders were to be involved, so at least ten older men in the local town, religious, of good repute, known as people-shepherds with tolerance and wisdom and so on, were to hear the accusation

*unto the gate of his place - there were to be more than elders there, it was the spot for news, gatherings and commerce at the gate, where protection was also afforded the town

*father and mother "lay hold" of the "kid" - it was taking two adult people to drag "the three year old kid" to the gate - since there was no PCP to be done the kid was big and strong, a "grown up" kid one might dare say

*Verse 20 - the two witnesses, the parents, who were not to bear false witness, have a sevenfold accusation a) stubborn b) rebellious c) disobeys mother d) disobeys father e) disobeys chastening f) drunkard g) glutton

*Verse 21 - and there is a LOT between 20 and 21 like admonitions in other verses and in Talmud for elders to pray before judging, use mercy before judging, meditate on any capital sentence for 72 hours before passing guilt or innocence in judgment and finally meet for two weeks of prayer before any execution, etc. - things that were NOT done in Jesus's trial NOR were apparently done here unless you simply follow these verses without following the rest of the Bible and tradition - by the by, Jewish Talmud records this sentence was never carried out on a Jewish child - it's more like an old wives tale to scare the kids at night Smile - well now, let's see...

*in verse 21 ALL THE MEN STONE THE REBELLIOUS - the entire TOWN was called in to testify as to whether the "kid" was going to die - since THEY were going to pick up stones - reminds of something about Jesus and stones and sin, what was it? Ummmm... something. Not that God would put prophecies in the Law but not tell you it's a prophecy, that would be weird, well, um,

*the whole TOWN knew if sentence needed to be passed - stone the person to death - so that the entire community put out the evil - AND SUCH A THING WAS SO UNHEARD OF THAT ALL ISRAEL WOULD HEAR ABOUT IT. IT WASN'T AN EVERYDAY OCCURANCE OR EVEN AN EVERY GENERATION THING. Where the Babylonians and Persians and Canaanites and so on would kill people for religious worship or for spite or for vengeance - But where the Law is strong the people are sinners and do wrong, but not like today, where untold millions of kids in otherwise good homes are evil and destructive...

Thanks for the Bible study! I would not have done one on this passage otherwise. I now have a dozen answers for the passage whereas before I had one or two meek ones. Thanks again.

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30-01-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
Are you saying that we should kill stubborn, rebellious, disobedient, drunk, gluttonous adults, but only as a last resort? Do you not realize that our society would be a living hell (pun intended) if our laws and ethics were based on the Bible? Honestly, Q, your defense of that passage terrifies me.
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30-01-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
I'm pretty sure there are no "pictures" of Jesus in Deuteronomy....
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30-01-2015, 05:31 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(30-01-2015 03:13 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

THIS is exciting! THIS is what I mean by "I come to TTA to teach, to learn and to have fun." I've told hundreds of Christians, "If you dare visit TTA they are not going to accept your tired old apologetics and the atheists will really pick at whatever bones are thrown..."

So NOW I have a little "juice" in my Bible study for the afternoon. I'll try to show you what I mean by "we read different Bibles because Christians (and Pharisees) are supposed to savor every word, not just every sentence, dig in with context and whatever Talmud/Torah/Prophets/Mishna and fundies and atheists have to say:

All ask The Q, "Can I kill my kids now? What kind of kid was this?"

Answers - and THANK YOU for making me REALLY look at the passage rather than spew out the same, tired old apologetics - it really enlivens my personal Bible study (!):

*Verse 18: A man has a rebellious son he wants to have publicly killed, like the way the Father condemned Jesus for sin publicly as stubborn and rebellious (pride and sin) - we have a picture of Jesus in verse 18. Great.

*the "kid" won't obey father or mother - so this was a two-parent home and so this wasn't some runaway from a broken home who needs help and succor--this is a rebel

*they have chastened him, that is, he was disciplined for wrongdoing but still rebellious

*there wasn't an abusive mother and a soft father or vice versa - there wasn't one parent trying to kill a kid for an inheritance or theft - both parents had been in run-ins with their son

*Verse 19 - the elders were to be involved, so at least ten older men in the local town, religious, of good repute, known as people-shepherds with tolerance and wisdom and so on, were to hear the accusation

*unto the gate of his place - there were to be more than elders there, it was the spot for news, gatherings and commerce at the gate, where protection was also afforded the town

*father and mother "lay hold" of the "kid" - it was taking two adult people to drag "the three year old kid" to the gate - since there was no PCP to be done the kid was big and strong, a "grown up" kid one might dare say

*Verse 20 - the two witnesses, the parents, who were not to bear false witness, have a sevenfold accusation a) stubborn b) rebellious c) disobeys mother d) disobeys father e) disobeys chastening f) drunkard g) glutton

*Verse 21 - and there is a LOT between 20 and 21 like admonitions in other verses and in Talmud for elders to pray before judging, use mercy before judging, meditate on any capital sentence for 72 hours before passing guilt or innocence in judgment and finally meet for two weeks of prayer before any execution, etc. - things that were NOT done in Jesus's trial NOR were apparently done here unless you simply follow these verses without following the rest of the Bible and tradition - by the by, Jewish Talmud records this sentence was never carried out on a Jewish child - it's more like an old wives tale to scare the kids at night Smile - well now, let's see...

*in verse 21 ALL THE MEN STONE THE REBELLIOUS - the entire TOWN was called in to testify as to whether the "kid" was going to die - since THEY were going to pick up stones - reminds of something about Jesus and stones and sin, what was it? Ummmm... something. Not that God would put prophecies in the Law but not tell you it's a prophecy, that would be weird, well, um,

*the whole TOWN knew if sentence needed to be passed - stone the person to death - so that the entire community put out the evil - AND SUCH A THING WAS SO UNHEARD OF THAT ALL ISRAEL WOULD HEAR ABOUT IT. IT WASN'T AN EVERYDAY OCCURANCE OR EVEN AN EVERY GENERATION THING. Where the Babylonians and Persians and Canaanites and so on would kill people for religious worship or for spite or for vengeance - But where the Law is strong the people are sinners and do wrong, but not like today, where untold millions of kids in otherwise good homes are evil and destructive...

Thanks for the Bible study! I would not have done one on this passage otherwise. I now have a dozen answers for the passage whereas before I had one or two meek ones. Thanks again.

Just because an interpretation could be true doesn't mean it is - and the more you have to stretch to believe it, the less likely it's true. I'm sore from all the stretching you just put me through! But, more importantly, how does this make stoning the kid acceptable again, because I missed that part... Consider

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30-01-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
From Q:
Quote:by the by, Jewish Talmud records this sentence was never carried out on a Jewish child - it's more like an old wives tale to scare the kids at night

So the bible - god's word has old wives tales in it? Sums it up pretty well. Laugh out load
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30-01-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
Quote:Just because an interpretation could be true doesn't mean it is - and the more you have to stretch to believe it, the less likely it's true. I'm sore from all the stretching you just put me through! But, more importantly, how does this make stoning the kid acceptable again, because I missed that part... Consider

I think that what Q is saying is that the kid must be really bad to be stoned. But still... There's alot of really bad kids in juvy hall. Maybe Q can tell us which ones we should stone to death?
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30-01-2015, 07:07 PM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2015 07:12 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
We all have heard the penalty of being stoned to death and if you’re like me you never really gave it much thought. I’ve never seen anyone stoned to death and for most of my life I had no visual concept of what it entailed or just how brutal it is. So allow me to give you a primer on this barbaric custom that the God of the OT likes to dish out so much.

[Image: Islam-StoningProcedure3.jpg]
[Image: Islam-StoningProcedure.jpg]
*Note: stonings can take from 20 minutes to 2 hours!


Very disturbing images follow:
[Image: bukhari_rajam_stoning.jpg]
[Image: 225942_2.jpg]
[Image: spectrum22_689125a1.jpg]
[Image: soraya01.png]
[Image: 6122e9513513a4f5cebb690f0beab80e.png]

Next time you read a passage from the Bible where it instructs a person to be stoned to death http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bibl...-to-Death/ keep these images in mind. Its in the Bible multiple times and either ordered or condoned by God.

Leviticus Chapter 20
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Leviticus 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Stoning

Numbers 15:32-36
Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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30-01-2015, 07:20 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(30-01-2015 06:30 PM)thecontemplator Wrote:  I think that what Q is saying is that the kid must be really bad to be stoned.

If that's what he's saying, I'm still not seeing how the stoning is acceptable. Drinking Beverage

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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30-01-2015, 07:46 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(30-01-2015 03:13 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So NOW I have a little "juice" in my Bible study for the afternoon.

Now you have "juice" Dude, I think you drank the kool aid a long time ago.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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30-01-2015, 07:48 PM
God says I can kill my kids.
So there's something that a rebellious kid (adult or child) can do that warrants being partially or mostly buried and pelted with stones? Seriously, what kind of mutated justice would allow for that?
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