God says I can kill my kids.
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31-01-2015, 05:49 AM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(30-01-2015 07:20 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(30-01-2015 06:30 PM)thecontemplator Wrote:  I think that what Q is saying is that the kid must be really bad to be stoned.

If that's what he's saying, I'm still not seeing how the stoning is acceptable. Drinking Beverage

Of course you don't - you are both moral and sane. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-01-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(31-01-2015 05:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-01-2015 07:20 PM)Impulse Wrote:  If that's what he's saying, I'm still not seeing how the stoning is acceptable. Drinking Beverage

Of course you don't - you are both moral and sane. Drinking Beverage

What I find horrifying is that we're the ones who are deemed "immoral" by the society, not the ones that would go at lengths to justify such atrocities in the bible.
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02-02-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
All,

A few salient points:

1. If you take the Bible at face value, which you clearly do for some of it, therefore the consternation, in a society that saw God's punishments firsthand, knowing the severity of the law would go a tremendous way as a deterrent without anyone performing that law (or modified, it is arguable that when capital punishment is doled out, crime raters are lowered) - I say "arguable" because I really don't wish to argue this last point - as I wrote, killing your children for disobedience is as ridiculous as it sounds on its face, and the Talmud records that such a sentence was never carried out. While I don't want to argue whether capital punishment works (it certainly stops a criminal 100% from ever committing further crimes) or whether the purpose of the law is punishment or rehabilitation or both, these people saw and walked with God and amen'ed that the ideas behind the law were good. The emphasis is on children in stable two-parent homes obeying their parents and the admonition of the village elders, etc.

2. I know you have alternatives to capital punishment. "Penitentiary" comes from the word "penitent" as "time out" punishments were first enacted by the Quakers almost 3,000 years after the Law was given. I'd ask you about your alternatives but I already am aware that:

*theocratic Israel had no government taxation, only assessments to pay for religious sacrifices and etc. so there was no tax base to build prisons

*any alternative for humane treatment for the person in THIS instance -- wicked to parents and their entire community, a drunkard and glutton (which implies thief if you think about what a glutton does) -- has to be tempered with the fact that in an irreligious society it is a failure -- our prisons are filled with millions of convicts who, religious or atheist regardless, started off being disobedient to parents. And many, many prisoners are jailed for alcohol-related crimes such as theft, public disorderly conduct and destruction of property, and violent crimes including spousal and child abuse and rape committed while intoxicated. The Bible is inerrant and also a running commentary on society...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-02-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(30-01-2015 07:07 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  We all have heard the penalty of being stoned to death and if you’re like me you never really gave it much thought. I’ve never seen anyone stoned to death and for most of my life I had no visual concept of what it entailed or just how brutal it is. So allow me to give you a primer on this barbaric custom that the God of the OT likes to dish out so much.

[Image: Islam-StoningProcedure3.jpg]
[Image: Islam-StoningProcedure.jpg]
*Note: stonings can take from 20 minutes to 2 hours!


Very disturbing images follow:
[Image: bukhari_rajam_stoning.jpg]
[Image: 225942_2.jpg]
[Image: spectrum22_689125a1.jpg]
[Image: soraya01.png]
[Image: 6122e9513513a4f5cebb690f0beab80e.png]

Next time you read a passage from the Bible where it instructs a person to be stoned to death http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bibl...-to-Death/ keep these images in mind. Its in the Bible multiple times and either ordered or condoned by God.

Leviticus Chapter 20
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Leviticus 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Stoning

Numbers 15:32-36
Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

The photos and infographic are indeed thought provoking but not the biblical stoning. As already described, an entire town does the stoning--it's not going to take two hours to bring someone into unconsciousness...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-02-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(02-02-2015 02:31 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. If you take the Bible at face value, which you clearly do for some of it, therefore the consternation, in a society that saw God's punishments firsthand,

Unevidenced claim.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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02-02-2015, 05:55 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(02-02-2015 02:31 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...
1. If you take the Bible at face value,
...

Only apologetics says it should be taken any other way. Why the hell would any god inspire a book of rules to live by that should be taken any other way? Drinking Beverage

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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02-02-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
So once again, we're not supposed to take the Bible at its word because it doesn't fit? I find the idea that the Bible has instructions that supposedly no one ever followed quite unlikely and hilarious. Every other law and instruction and ritual is to be followed, but somehow the ones we find abhorrent are just symbolic?
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03-02-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(02-02-2015 02:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 02:31 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. If you take the Bible at face value, which you clearly do for some of it, therefore the consternation, in a society that saw God's punishments firsthand,

Unevidenced claim.

I understand that you feel it is an unevidenced claim, however, the context of what the books teach sheds light on the practice and Israel as a theocracy.

For another example, you've cited elsewhere at TTA the injustice of threatening people with hellfire or draconian punishments just like stoning. The problem, you'd say, is that though there isn't any god, religion shouldn't be used to threaten anyone. The context of the Mosaic Law is a people deeply religious and god-fearing. Any commentator would need to include that context in this discourse.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-02-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
(02-02-2015 06:00 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  So once again, we're not supposed to take the Bible at its word because it doesn't fit? I find the idea that the Bible has instructions that supposedly no one ever followed quite unlikely and hilarious. Every other law and instruction and ritual is to be followed, but somehow the ones we find abhorrent are just symbolic?

I don't know what you mean by "once again". We need not keep the Mosaic Law. Israel did--and if you can find an adult drunken child who has transgressed in the sevenfold way described, and whose entire town is willing to stone him, such "child" is pretty bad and has done crimes deserving capital punishment. The fact that such punishment was never enacted, however, shows the reasonableness and level-headed nature of the people.

I think what I noticed in your post is that you find certain laws abhorrent and therefore, to be disobeyed. Why is it, do you think, that some find abortion or the widespread distribution of pornography abhorrent (and in America, against the framers' intent and unconstitutional) but live peaceably as law-abiding citizens without attacking the people and system that made those laws?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-02-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: God says I can kill my kids.
Nice diversion there Q to get the topic off of that disgusting book of stories you struggle to defend.

Oh, and isn't the condemnation of homosexuality in the Mosaic law that we do not need to follow?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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