"God should not fit your expectations! Your expectations must fit god!"
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24-01-2013, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2013 10:36 PM by Chujutsu.)
"God should not fit your expectations! Your expectations must fit god!"
Hello guys.

I remember a heated chat I had with a Catholic. It all came from me posting my own variant of Carl Sagan's "Dragon in my Garage" somewhere on our Facebook group (which was not primarily for atheists but to meet new friends and have conversations). I just changed the fire-breathing dragon to an ice unicorn, and the Catholic came up and well, the comments started filling up.

I talked to the Catholic through Facebook's private chat function, and it was there that she claimed that I was arrogant to have expectations of god. She claimed that it should be the other way around, that my expectations should conform to god. All I wanted was that god is benevolent and that he knows what he's doing.

Also, she claimed that god is exempted from his moral commands. In other words, he's exempted from being liable to killing people. She used the analogy that parents don't have to practice their multiplication tables while telling their children to do them.


To be honest, looking back, it's odd that god can kill with impunity. I thought that her analogy makes no sense because learning multiplication tables has no real moral value whereas killing people does. I think I was already too tired to point this out to her.

Anyway, I would like to ask you guys if my reasoning is faulty or not.
1.) Is it arrogant of me to have expectations of god (EDIT: if he exists) and want him to keep to those expectations?
2.) Is the analogy of a parent telling his child to practice multiplication tables applicable to god telling people not to kill; that god may not follow his own rule?
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24-01-2013, 10:46 PM
RE: "God should not fit your expectations! Your expectations must fit god!"
"Is it arrogant of me to have expectations of god and want him to keep to those expectations?"

Not at all. Just as it's not arrogant of a child to expect his parents to be consistent with the rules they inflict on their children. Do as I say, not as I do is arrogant. Not to mention, cowardly bullying. That said, I do think that having expectations of god is about as productive as having expectations of Popey or, the invisible ferret that lives in my trousers.

"Is the analogy of a parent telling his child to practice multiplication
tables applicable to god telling people not to kill; that god may not
follow his own rule?
"


Another not at all. One presumes that a parent has already learned mathematics and thus, doesn't need to practice them. As a 44 year old man, I don't need to practice writing my name but a four year old would get a lot of use from that exercise. And you're correct, there is no moral consequence to mathematics while there certainly is to murder. Not so much with killing, as killing can be a legitimate self defense strategy.
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24-01-2013, 11:52 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2013 04:09 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: "God should not fit your expectations! Your expectations must fit god!"
Turn it around on her. She's arrogant for expecting everyone to 'respect' her particular set of beliefs in iron-age fairy tales.

She also has expectations that if she follows the tenants of the Church, she is going to heaven. That means she has an expectation on how heaven operates vis-a-vis the Catechism and Bible. That means she has expectations on God's realms, and therefor on Him. She expects that the rules aren't going to suddenly change and that God isn't going to send all Catholics to Hell for the fun of it. She's the one with the real expectations being applied to her God, because she's the one that thinks she's going to hang out with him at his timeshare when she dies... Dodgy

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25-01-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: "God should not fit your expectations! Your expectations must fit god!"
Chujutsu,

I have heard that same argument and it's annoying. It's just yet another excuse they use to justify their not facing the obvious issues with their faith.

Is it arrogant to have expectations of God? No. I look at it this way. Catholics (since that was the context of your discussion) believe you must have faith in God or risk, even practically guarantee, going to hell. There is nothing preventing God from being the most hideous, evil being in the universe who will send you to eternal torture no matter what you do. We can't see him, so how would we ever know? Yet Catholics expect you to put that "ridiculous notion" aside and trust in an ancient book saying it's different. Is it arrogant for you to see problems with that? No, it's really a matter of survival even if you believe a deity or powerful being is really out there. And if you don't believe even that, then it's a matter of common sense.

As for the analogy, it is grossly flawed. The correct analogy would be the parent who is teaching their child that killing is wrong, but then goes out and murders a bunch of people. As you said, in the analogy with the multiplication tables, the parent isn't doing anything morally wrong by not practicing multiplication.

Silence is only golden when it's not synonymous with a failure to speak out against injustice.

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." --Gene Roddenberry
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25-01-2013, 03:40 PM
RE: "God should not fit your expectations! Your expectations must fit god!"
I agree. She must have expectations of god and the harp playing winged afterlife, so how is that different from us having them (if he did exist)? Occam's razor...

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29-01-2013, 11:16 PM
RE: "God should not fit your expectations! Your expectations must fit god!"
(24-01-2013 10:29 PM)Chujutsu Wrote:  Anyway, I would like to ask you guys if my reasoning is faulty or not.
1.) Is it arrogant of me to have expectations of god (EDIT: if he exists) and want him to keep to those expectations?
2.) Is the analogy of a parent telling his child to practice multiplication tables applicable to god telling people not to kill; that god may not follow his own rule?
I'm new. Forgive me if someone already put what I am going to post. Drinking Beverage
1: If a Theist calls you arrogant for having expectations about God, then she's kind of being a hypocrite. Tongue
2: It looks like she was trying to give an example of discipline or nurture but was using just another metaphor for “God can teach you morality if you bothered to learn.” I think that’s arrogant of her.
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