God the absolute truth
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03-10-2012, 06:53 AM
RE: God the absolute truth
(02-10-2012 10:08 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-10-2012 11:25 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  Since I'm not a biologist I might missing the whole point of this convo...

Look no further. There isn't one. Big Grin
Point taken... Tongue

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03-10-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: God the absolute truth
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Quote:VOSUR

Good job on committing the strawman fallacy three times in one post. DLJ and BB actually asked with which definitions of the word you are working with. Also, I specifically said that the two options are not the same, but that mine is a third one which is independent from the other two.


Let understand each other.

Let’s think that you have Universe inside of a box, you do not know what is inside the box.

You open the box 15 billion years ago and what do you find?


The entire universe in a volume not bigger than a marble.


You open the box 3.5 billion years ago and what do you find?


Galaxies, Stars, planets, and one unicellular being.


You open the box today and what do you find?


Galaxies stars planets, and all the life you see.


If you open the box 15 trillions years from now what will you find?


A) Life controlling the entire universe eternally.

B) Only inert matter eternally.

C) Life controlling half of the universe eternally hopping the other half he did not control will not kill him.



OK Vosur which of these 3 options do you recommend to believe?











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Quote:DLJ



You didn't miss anything cos it's not a convo... it's sparring practice.

Thing is... is "goal" the right word? Goals (in sport or business) are pre-defined objectives. Does a weed that is taking over your garden (surviving and reproducing / replicating) have a goal?

Also, is "life" the right word, cos we see these rules (surviving etc.) in the game of life and these rules apply for the very small and the very big but we call it a "law of nature".

Plants and animals consume and excrete. One creature's excretion is another creature's energy source, a process of outputs and inputs (oxygen, CO2, meat, flower pollen)

So the rules could be:
"acquire" and "merge" or "conquer" and "assimilate"
"produce" and "consume" or "give" and "take".

The successful "life" forms (plants and animals and football teams and businesses and even (hey, why not?) religions) are the ones that are "fittest" (in the Darwinian sense) but not all have a conscious goal.

Can it be seen in the same way that atoms react by "producing" and "consuming" each other's electrons? Is this "life"?

A bee takes C, O, H etc. in the form of pollen; a business produces and consumes to survive and acquires and/or merges to grow. We have predators and prey and we have symbiosis and partnerships and unions (physical and organisational).

Given that all living things are made up of non-living things aren't we just talking about surviving and replicating as a more complex form of atomic exchange?

At a cosmic level galaxies are doing the same thing.... sucking up cosmic dust, chucking out heat, colliding and merging, growing or dying.

The OP is challenging his/her reader to explain how all this can happen without a prime mover which is an interesting topic because it's the "how did it all start?" question.

The laughable bit is the leap to there being a prime mover that actualy gives a shit. Everyone else here sees no evidence for this ... even KC's deity doesn't seem to go that far.

However, I'm more interested in coming up with some universal terms for the process (rules in the game of life) that can be appled/attributed at all levels (quantum, molecular, cellular, plant, animal, pack/herd, society, business, culture, nation, planetary, solar system, galactic, cosmic).

Any suggestions?





To help you understand GOAL in living creatures you need to go to the origin.

There you have the first unicellular being in the evolution chain; it has two choices to eat something that will kill him or to eat something that will help him survive.

The same two choices appear to every step in the evolution chain.

The Goal of the first being was to survive so he selected the food that will help him survive.

I notice that you have a problem with saying GOAL because denotes consciousness.

You will say only humans can create goals. But think a fertilized egg inside of a woman have the same two choices the first unicellular being have, is just matter of time couple years so you can agree that this being can create goals.

Then you need to understand that consciousness is just a tool the living creatures use to reach his goal: Survive.



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Quote:LOSTLOCKE

Since I'm not a biologist I might missing the whole point of this convo...

But from what I can remember from HS/college biology life only has 2 basic goals and, in order, they are to A. Survive and B. Reproduce/replicate. That's it.
Any control that life gains or exerts in the process is incidental to those 2 basic goals.

Control is a tool used to reach the goal.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
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03-10-2012, 12:38 PM
RE: God the absolute truth
(03-10-2012 12:25 PM)Janus VI Wrote:  Let understand each other.

Let’s think that you have Universe inside of a box, you do not know what is inside the box.

You open the box 15 billion years ago and what do you find?

The entire universe in a volume not bigger than a marble.

You open the box 3.5 billion years ago and what do you find?

Galaxies, Stars, planets, and one unicellular being.
You actually don't know that. You don't know if there have been other lifeforms in distant galaxies before it evolved on earth, you don't know if there are other lifeforms now and you don't know if there are going to be other lifeforms in the future.

(03-10-2012 12:25 PM)Janus VI Wrote:  You open the box today and what do you find?

Galaxies stars planets, and all the life you see.

If you open the box 15 trillions years from now what will you find?

A) Life controlling the entire universe eternally.

B) Only inert matter eternally.

C) Life controlling half of the universe eternally hopping the other half he did not control will not kill him.

OK Vosur which of these 3 options do you recommend to believe?
It's completely irrelevant. Why would you believe in any of these options? It's all mere speculation, because you have no evidence to back up any of them. The most likely option seems to be an edited version of C., which is "Life will control parts of the universe", because the universe is constantly expanding.

That being said, I don't even know where you are going with this whole thread. Assuming that life will control the entire universe one day - so what? What's your point?

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03-10-2012, 12:56 PM
RE: God the absolute truth
(03-10-2012 12:25 PM)Janus VI Wrote:  Let’s think that you have Universe inside of a box, you do not know what is inside the box.

You open the box 15 billion years ago and what do you find?
The entire universe in a volume not bigger than a marble.
You open the box 3.5 billion years ago and what do you find?
Galaxies, Stars, planets, and one unicellular being.
You open the box today and what do you find?
Galaxies stars planets, and all the life you see.
If you open the box 15 trillions years from now what will you find?
A) Life controlling the entire universe eternally.
B) Only inert matter eternally.
C) Life controlling half of the universe eternally hopping the other half he did not control will not kill him.

To help you understand GOAL in living creatures you need to go to the origin.

There you have the first unicellular being in the evolution chain; it has two choices to eat something that will kill him or to eat something that will help him survive.

The same two choices appear to every step in the evolution chain.

The Goal of the first being was to survive so he selected the food that will help him survive.

Sunshine, had you started the thread with this post, and not brought a god into the picture, it could have been an interesting topic.

Now, however, some the less persistent yet wiser minds on this forum have no time for you.

It's a pity, really.

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03-10-2012, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012 10:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God the absolute truth
(03-10-2012 12:25 PM)Janus VI Wrote:  You open the box 15 billion years ago and what do you find?
The entire universe in a volume not bigger than a marble.
You open the box 3.5 billion years ago and what do you find?

Nope. Fail.
1. 15 billion years ago, there was no universe.
2. It never existed long enough, small enough, to fit in a box, for you to open and look at.
3. The problem with all this is twofold, (at least)
a. There is a presumed duality between "life", and the rest of the universe, which is false. Life IS (part of, and nothing essentially "other" than anything else in the universe). There is no duality, It's a false distinction. Science is well on the way to understanding how life emerged from natural chemical reactions).
There was never a time when there was only 1 "unicellular" animal. There were millions, if not trillions or more, of hydrophillic/hydrophic structures, which evolved into cells.

Janus has not demonstrated that life is NOT just trying to co-exist.

There were proto-cells. Science knows hows how that likely happened.
Proto-cells came from hydrophobic phospho-lipds.

And BTW, Janus, you OP is a fallacy. If god is "absolute truth", it presumes a standard of comparison external to the god. What does absolute truth even mean. Where does the concept come from, if there is nothing to compare the absolute to ? If it NOT external, then the comparison, is pointless, as you're just saying "god is god". If it's [u/]external[/u], then how did a god know she was "absolute truth" You can't compare god to something which is not external. If god is the creator of ALL of Reality, then she can't have created the standard(s), against which she ALWAYS was compared to. It's a presumed pre-existant structure, (which you forgot to think about). It's actually a human standard, thus could not be "absolute". If god IS absolute Truth, and I hate your fucking guts, then god is hate.






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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-10-2012, 07:03 PM
RE: God the absolute truth
(03-10-2012 12:25 PM)Janus VI Wrote:  If you open the box 15 trillions years from now what will you find?

Big Chill, Big Crush, Big Rip, Big Suck, Big Fuck. Pick your poison.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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03-10-2012, 07:25 PM
RE: God the absolute truth
I while ago, I decided to stop playing with this mouse (You know the way cats play with mice before eating them), honestly it is quite a boring mouse to play with, and I am finding it hard to know why people keep paying the fool attention...

Then again, I do keep being drawn here myself.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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03-10-2012, 07:33 PM
RE: God the absolute truth
(03-10-2012 07:25 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  ... and I am finding it hard to know why people keep paying the fool attention...

Trolls invariably present educational opportunities for the community.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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03-10-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: God the absolute truth
True enough, Girlyman.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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04-10-2012, 04:23 PM
RE: God the absolute truth
(10-09-2012 12:01 AM)Janus VI Wrote:  The life's goal in the universe is to control the universe.

Therefore:

God = the way, and the truth, and the life.

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