God (truth, real self) has no religion
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09-04-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
My argument is quite simple:

Truth has no religion.

A. True, or

B. False.
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09-04-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
Religious people would say, "Truth has religion".

Non religious people would say, "Truth has no religion".

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09-04-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
(09-04-2016 03:02 PM)Matheism Wrote:  My argument is quite simple:

Truth has no religion.

A. True, or

B. False.

Your argument is dishonest. You claim that truth has no religion but that Islam is the only True religion. You claim to be an atheist yet maintain that there is one True God.




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09-04-2016, 03:35 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
There is no such thing as God.. Spirit is God, Truth .. real self.

(09-04-2016 10:35 AM)Matheism Wrote:  How should the qibla (object of worship), namely, the Divine Unity, be two?

How should earth (man) be worshipped by the angels?

[When I have formed him and breathed My spirit into him, fall down in prostration before him (Adam, man). (15.29)]

The Khwāja is the God-man of whom God said You did not throw when you threw:

to see him is to see the Creator.
To serve him is to serve God:
to see this window is to see the Daylight.

Listen, let your inner eye and your heart pass beyond (transcend) the bodily clay!
...
~Rumi
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09-04-2016, 03:36 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
(09-04-2016 02:54 PM)Matheism Wrote:  I'm not here to convert anyone to Islam, I'm just interested in argument. That's it.

(09-04-2016 03:02 PM)Matheism Wrote:  My argument is quite simple:

Truth has no religion.

A. True, or

B. False.

That isn't an argument. It's a statement without any context with which to evaluate it.

If I had to make a wild guess at what you are trying to say, you think there is one god but many ways to approach understanding it and that different religions can be equally good pathways to reaching that understanding. If so, my position is that every argument I've ever heard for the existence of anything that can be called a god is based on fallacious reasoning and there is no good reason to believe that a god exists. In that sense "truth" has no connection to religion but I doubt that's what you mean by your ridiculous catch phrase.

If you do disagree, please define what you think the "truth" is and provide evidence that anybody should accept your definition. Repeating "truth has no religion" ad nauseam is not how you go about making an argument for your beliefs.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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09-04-2016, 03:37 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
(09-04-2016 03:24 PM)Matheism Wrote:  Religious people would say, "Truth has religion".

Non religious people would say, "Truth has no religion".

No. Religious people claim that religion has truth. It's hard to tell from what you're trying to pass off as an argument but you're either affirming the consequent or denying the antecedent. Possibly both. Whatever it is it's utterly fallacious.

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09-04-2016, 03:37 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
(09-04-2016 03:35 PM)Matheism Wrote:  There is no such thing as God.. Spirit is God, Truth .. real self.

What do you mean by "spirit", "god", "truth", and "real self"? Using vague, undefined terms doesn't convey meaning.

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09-04-2016, 03:40 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
ideology (false self) as products...



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09-04-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
maybe this could help to understand Fight Club ... Smile

Spiritual Journey

Every complete human life has four essential stages.

FIRST STAGE

Quote:The first stage is childhood where each of us has an experience of clear ecstasy, a sustained, often luminous, and sometimes directly disturbing experience of union with reality. I believe if we all rediscovered our childhood, we would be aware of being the substratum of the universe, and of the universe being a magical field for our delights and our energies.

But childhood is also the source of wounds, of humiliation, of abandonment, the source of the first terrors. And around those wounds, terrors, and abandonment, and around the conventions of the culture and the expectations of our parents and of our world, stage two arises.

SECOND STAGE

Quote:Stage two can be thought of as the creation of the false self, the creation of the unreal self, the self that identifies itself with biography, with duties and conventions with the desire to succeed, with the hunger to dominate experience and dominate the world. This false self is invariably erected around the wounds of childhood as a kind of scaffold to protect them, and is also a response to the conventions of the world, to the expectations of everyone around us. So it is a hybrid, rickety, jittery, unsatisfactory structure which ignorance of any alternative keeps us wanting to prolong.

Most people, unfortunately, live their entire lives in a stage two as victims of this creation of their own panic and of the communal hallucination that we call "society". If you are very lucky or desperate, you will be driven in stage two to search, to quest, too long for something other than the anxiety, panic, despair, and unsatisfactory joys that seem to fulfill the life and expectations of the false self. The tragedy is if you think you are happy in stage two. The tragedy of our culture is that it is a stage-two culture designed to keep people trapped there and designed to keep them exactly at the pitch of panic and desperation at which they will go on fulfilling all the false needs of the false self and dancing its death-dance of ignorance.

When you really see what our culture is, how unprecedented it is in its brutality, how unprecedented, too, in the brilliance of the weapons that it has placed in the hands of this brutality and its will to deny and destroy all possibilities of transcendence, then you realize how profound are the obstacles that prevent us from ever getting out of stage two. Nervous breakdowns, schizophrenia, outbursts of paranoia, drug addiction, and desperate love affairs are all symptoms of a hunger to escape stage two. All of these desperations and hungers are symptoms of an unacknowledged and hidden need to escape from the prison the modern world has become, this godless worldwide high-tech concentration camp of reason that we are in.

What happens, then, to take somebody from stage two into stage three? Often, a breakdown occurs. If you are lucky, that breakdown will happen early because the pain of childhood or the painful contrast between your inner self and the outer world will become so great that you'll be haunted by fears of suicide or driven really to look at all the facts of your life. The tragedy is when that does not happen, when people drift into middle age and suddenly have a midlife crisis in which they realize that they have done nothing in their lives, have written nothing meaningful, nor spoken one authentic word out of what they imagine to be their minds. This is terrifying but it is what this culture prepares for almost everybody: a good nervous breakdown when it is too late to be of use.

So my best wish for you is to have your breakdown when young. It is best, I think, to squeeze it into the last days of your twenties and make it prolonged. So prolonged, in fact, that you will have to begin the search for another reality, seriously and passionately. And this will take you into stage three of this journey.

THIRD STAGE

Quote:Sometimes stage three begins with a serious of visions, or a series of dreams which you cannot deny because their intensity and strangeness. It can also begin by an extraordinary meeting. This is a moment of terror, shock, and ecstasy, when you know, because of another human being is incarnating it in front of you, that everything you have understood about the world, about identity, about the nature of reality, is a stupid fiction of your false self. The world absolutely falls and fades away and you are shocked to the core of your being by a possibility of outrages that no words have ever been able to describe it adequately. Even the greatest mystic poets fail to describe this possibility, which is nothing less than being a part of the Godhead itself radiating in experience.

You see truth enacted in front of you in a human being who, through many signs and many powers, shows you that he or she is in a Reality which you did not even imagine. Then you enter the whirlwind of divine transformation. The agonies of false self are small compared with the agonies of the spirit. The agonies of the false self are paltry, suburban melodramas: the agonies of the spirit are played out in the immense theatre of the Divine and they mirror the struggle between good and evil in the universe, the struggle for the victory of Light in this dimension and in matter. So they have a terror, a range, a splendor, and a goal greater than anything that can be imagined until you are being whirled about in their fire.

What happens in stage three is that the false self is burnt alive. The false self is mocked, derided, lacerated, opened up by visionary ecstasy, by dreams, by unmistakable moments of shattering insight, by immense joy and immense grief, by the sudden penetration into the heart of all the pains of the world and all the joys of the world, by becoming as you walk down the street the flower on the curb or the old woman in front of you, or the windshield of the passing car, without any mediation, without any veil.

Stage three is also marked by the collapse of all the games that kept stage two going. If you are a writer, you probably fall silent. If you are an actor, you see the obscenity and the idiocy of what you are doing. If you are a professor, every dreary word which comes out of your mouth will literally look like a dead butterfly. The exposure is total. In this stage everything is taken away from the false self so that it dies. All its hiding places are unnervingly opened up and dissolved.

But while this savage and often hilarious destruction is going on, and simultaneously is born of an unmistakable, irreducible identity with that Light that is bliss, peace and awareness. This does not and cannot happen quickly. It happens in bursts, in swells, in trials, in spirals, and is often accompanied by other forms of breakdown, temptation, or desolation, which the searcher has to experience for himself within the terms of his or her own self which is being transformed, of his or her own personality.

Very few people ever get to the end of stage three. This is because stage three requires, and the word is "requires", total surrender to the higher Path. It requires total abandon to the Beloved. It requires total faith in the divine power of the divine Master, because nothing can get you through the ordeals of stage three but that faith. You are in a completely new field about which you know nothing. It is vaster, more immense, more majestic, more terrible than anything the ego mind can even being to imagine. In this field of total novelty, abrasive, wild, completely foreign, you have only one recourse and that is to grasp the hand of the divine Master for absolute dear life. Unless you are holding the hand of the Beloved in abandonment and humility, you can only fall over the cliff of the mind and be shattered on the rocks below.

That shattering can take dramatic forms: it can be madness, it can be real schizophrenia, it can be extreme inflation of the self, because the experiences in stage three can lead you to imagine that you have completed the entire experience, and so can identify yourself with Christ or the Buddha. The West is now full of people identifying the spiritual experiences that happen in stage three with the completion of the Path, with enlightenment. This is nonsense: these experiences in the whirling fire of stage three are just the beginning.

Very few people get to the end of stage three because very few people are prepared to suffer enough.

That is the truth.

Who is prepared to give up everything for the Beloved?

Who is prepared to give up every area of their life including the most secret, the most deliciously pornographic, the most elaborate, the most cherished, to the unspeakably searching eye of the Divine Light?

Who is prepared to try and wed every moment of their daily life, every breath they take, every thought they have to the Light?

Transformation is a huge task, hugely beautiful and hugely difficult.

FOURTH STAGE

Quote:Stage three ends, and the mystical traditions agree on this, with the direct vision of the divine nature of Reality and the divine nature of the Self. And this is a direct of the Divine Light, seen normally, ordinarily, permanently, as a state of grace and nature. You know that you and the Light are one, and at any moment in which you focus or still yourself, the divine Light appears, literally. It is a white Light, it is colorless, manifesting everything. It is the Light of the Divine Mind. It is the Light of the Self, and at the end of stage three, that Light comes up forever. Nothing can ever eclipse it.

This most extraordinary moment is not dramatic. It happens in a blink and suddenly you realize that you are not looking out, but looking in, and all the barriers between you and the world, you and the world and others, you and the world and others and the Light, are dissolved. This is an enlightenment experience. But it is not the end of the journey. I think it is important, at this moment in our culture, to make it clear that this illumination is not enlightenment.

Stage three ends with this illumination, the coming up of the divine Light, and with it the coming up of the certainty of the divine world. But this is just the beginning of the most important stage of all. Stage four has its own subtle agonies, but fortunately at stage four something else has entered the picture and it can only be described as a massive sense of humor.

By stage four you know beyond any doubt that the person suffering is an illusion, that the false self is constantly tempting you to dance into new shapes. You know that. You can be trapped and caught and humiliated again and again by shadows and desires, but the game is so obvious, the illusion so transparent, that you start laughing even as you fall. There is a tremendous sense of humor that helps you through the various ordeals of stage four.

Stage four is the integration of the divine Self with the human self, of the absolute with the relative, and that work of integration has to go down eventually into each cell of the body. So it is a work of bringing the entire human experience up to the level of the divine Light, of letting the Light come down and soak all the way through the body, heart, and mind and then letting the heart, mind and body flower endlessly in that Light.

So the point of stage four is this huge work of integration which is generally the work of several lifetimes. We talk of the Buddha's enlightenment at thirty-six and people then imagine that the Buddha just walked around for fifty years giving extraordinary teachings. I do not believe that the enlightenment the Buddha knew at thirty-six was a complete as the enlightenment he had right at the end of his life when he entered parinirvana. I believe that his enlightenment experience at Bodhgaya was integrated into every form of life as he went around, and that in him a massive polyphony of enlightenment grew and gathered strength. Right until the last moment, the Buddha was travelling in enlightenment fields.

A Tibetan Master once said to me, "An enlightened Master can travel more in a minute than other people can travel in 144,000 lifetimes." This is because the state of enlightenment is a state of infinite expansion, of infinite receptivity to the Light, the mind that is in the enlightenment field is exploding ceaselessly, endlessly, opening up and up. The bird of gnosis, free from the prison of the false self, is free to fly on and on into the Light, into vision after vision, metamorphosis after metamorphosis.
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09-04-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: God (truth, real self) has no religion
OK, since you don't seem to be geting what an "argument" actually is, I'll keep this simple. Any half-wit can put word into a Venn diagram. Have a look:

[Image: islam_zpszakcod8l.gif]

See? That isn't an argument. That's just a silly picture. The argument is the bit where you give a reason why those words belong in the fields that you've assigned them to.

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