God verse Satan death count
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17-06-2013, 08:55 AM
RE: God verse Satan death count
(16-06-2013 09:09 PM)SingingBear Wrote:  ...I was taught to blame Satan for every human death, since his lie to Eve in the Garden of Eden led to sin and sin to death. Even the ones God killed, it could be argued that he would never have had to kill them if not for Satan?...

"Satan" didn't lie to “Eve”, a snake did. Genesis says nothing about "Satan" being there at all. "God" placed a tree there so that "Adam" and "Eve" would eat of it. That tree had absolutely no other purpose for being created. The only reason "God" could have created it was for "Adam" and "Eve" to eat for this very purpose. Plus "God" knows everything, so he already knew that "Adam" and "Eve" were going to eat it, and he knew the snake was going to convince them to eat it. The only missing ingredient was the tree itself. Without it none of this would happen, and despite knowing the future, or rather because if it, "God" decided to make the tree and place it where he knew it would do the most damage. And all sin and death have lead from "God's" decision to both create the tree, and place it where he did.

So "God" is responsible for every death ever. If anything before this tree existed death did not, so "Satan" only even gained the ability to kill people after "God" created the ability for him to be able to do so. If "God" were ever to intervene in any human affair ever it should have been this one thing. To stop himself from making a tree to enslave the entire human race for eternity. That one intervention would have saved more lives than any other act he could ever perform. And what is worst is he wouldn't have even needed to actively intervene and do something (such as not give snakes larynxes), he would have had to not do something, to decided not to take an action he knowingly decided to take.

Make no mistake, "God" did it on purpose and wanted this out come.
...where any of it true anyway, which it isn't, of course...

...
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17-06-2013, 09:44 AM
RE: God verse Satan death count
By the way, when I was seven years old, I got stuck on this ^ concept. I hadn’t read the bible because I was a little kid, but I did hear this Sunday School story, tried reconciling it, and realized there is no way to make it make any sense.

It’s the first part of the Bible I ever wrote off, and once I did I realized not a single other part of it could make sense, because if the story of how it began couldn’t even get off the ground, then why would I care about the rest that follows?

It’s why I have a very difficult time understanding “believers”. I figured out it was bullshit between the ages of 5-7 year old. I was a little kid and I figured it out. FREAKING ADULTS STILL BELIEVE THIS SHIT?! I understand some only left it maybe a year or two or three ago, and have a better connection for understanding what it’s like to believe, but to me it feels no different than knowing the story of Pinocchio was just a story as a child, growing up and realizing that a large majority of adults still think this story about Pinocchio that we hear as children is actually happening and actually real. There really was a wooden boy, and a talking cricket, and a fairy godmother, and he lives in the belly of a whale, and he really was transformed from wood into flesh. For me it really is like growing up in a world where you realize every one seriously believes the Pinocchio story is something that really, actually happened, and they look at me crazy when I’m like, “that was obviously just a made up story, we know who wrote it”.

It’s Bazaaro World!

...
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17-06-2013, 11:31 AM
RE: God verse Satan death count
(17-06-2013 09:44 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  By the way, when I was seven years old, I got stuck on this ^ concept. I hadn’t read the bible because I was a little kid, but I did hear this Sunday School story, tried reconciling it, and realized there is no way to make it make any sense.

It’s the first part of the Bible I ever wrote off, and once I did I realized not a single other part of it could make sense, because if the story of how it began couldn’t even get off the ground, then why would I care about the rest that follows?

It’s why I have a very difficult time understanding “believers”. I figured out it was bullshit between the ages of 5-7 year old. I was a little kid and I figured it out. FREAKING ADULTS STILL BELIEVE THIS SHIT?! I understand some only left it maybe a year or two or three ago, and have a better connection for understanding what it’s like to believe, but to me it feels no different than knowing the story of Pinocchio was just a story as a child, growing up and realizing that a large majority of adults still think this story about Pinocchio that we hear as children is actually happening and actually real. There really was a wooden boy, and a talking cricket, and a fairy godmother, and he lives in the belly of a whale, and he really was transformed from wood into flesh. For me it really is like growing up in a world where you realize every one seriously believes the Pinocchio story is something that really, actually happened, and they look at me crazy when I’m like, “that was obviously just a made up story, we know who wrote it”.

It’s Bazaaro World!

Wait...what? Pinocchio isn't real? Prove it!

Throughout history conversions happen at the point of a sword, deconversions at the point of a pen - FC

I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain in Eruption
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17-06-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: God verse Satan death count
[Image: funny-graphs-god-v-satan.jpg]

I just put this in my recent post on the Favourite pictures for a laugh at religion... thread. Figured it would be good to put in this thread as well.

[Image: atheistsignature.jpg]
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17-06-2013, 08:37 PM
 
RE: God verse Satan death count
(16-06-2013 08:45 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Who is responsible for more deaths in the bible, God or Satan?

I see in the replies a reference to Steve Wells' work regarding this question. Steve, who I have had many discussions with, fails to appreciate that if it were up to Jehovah God, without Satan's influence, there would not have ever been one single human death or destruction of angel.

Satan is responsible for them all.
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17-06-2013, 08:45 PM
RE: God verse Satan death count
(17-06-2013 08:37 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(16-06-2013 08:45 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Who is responsible for more deaths in the bible, God or Satan?

I see in the replies a reference to Steve Wells' work regarding this question. Steve, who I have had many discussions with, fails to appreciate that if it were up to Jehovah God, without Satan's influence, there would not have ever been one single human death or destruction of angel.

Satan is responsible for them all.

So Satan is more powerful than Yahweh?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2013, 08:47 PM
 
RE: God verse Satan death count
(17-06-2013 08:45 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 08:37 PM)David Lee Wrote:  I see in the replies a reference to Steve Wells' work regarding this question. Steve, who I have had many discussions with, fails to appreciate that if it were up to Jehovah God, without Satan's influence, there would not have ever been one single human death or destruction of angel.

Satan is responsible for them all.

So Satan is more powerful than Yahweh?

Nice spin. But no. If you conclude that Yahweh had killed more would you make the same assumption on his behalf? How . . . American of you.
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17-06-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: God verse Satan death count
(17-06-2013 08:47 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 08:45 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  So Satan is more powerful than Yahweh?

Nice spin. But no. If you conclude that Yahweh had killed more would you make the same assumption on his behalf? How . . . American of you.

No but if you told me there were 2 forces and 1 wanted to prevent something from happening yet it happened anyway then the other force is therefore more powerful.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2013, 08:58 PM
RE: God verse Satan death count
(17-06-2013 08:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 08:47 PM)David Lee Wrote:  Nice spin. But no. If you conclude that Yahweh had killed more would you make the same assumption on his behalf? How . . . American of you.

No but if you told me there were 2 forces and 1 wanted to prevent something from happening yet it happened anyway then the other force is therefore more powerful.

I decided to add an example of this Gravity vs centrifugal force. Gravity wants to pull you towards it while centrifugal force want to push you away. Since they have opposite goals depending on what happens you can tell which is the stronger force.

You claim (from what I'm not certain) that Yahweh doesn't want to kill anyone (I'd disagree but that is irrelevant to this query) yet is forced to because of Satan. Therefore Satan is the more powerful Force.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2013, 09:15 PM
RE: God verse Satan death count
(17-06-2013 08:37 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(16-06-2013 08:45 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Who is responsible for more deaths in the bible, God or Satan?

I see in the replies a reference to Steve Wells' work regarding this question. Steve, who I have had many discussions with, fails to appreciate that if it were up to Jehovah God, without Satan's influence, there would not have ever been one single human death or destruction of angel.

Satan is responsible for them all.

Okay, so I just cut and pasted this from my post literally four post before your post. It dismissed you argument before you even made it. I would rewrite it, but it would be easier if you simple reread it, so here it is, again...

"
"Satan" didn't lie to “Eve”, a snake did. Genesis says nothing about "Satan" being there at all. "God" placed a tree there so that "Adam" and "Eve" would eat of it. That tree had absolutely no other purpose for being created. The only reason "God" could have created it was for "Adam" and "Eve" to eat for this very purpose. Plus "God" knows everything, so he already knew that "Adam" and "Eve" were going to eat it, and he knew the snake was going to convince them to eat it. The only missing ingredient was the tree itself. Without it none of this would happen, and despite knowing the future, or rather because if it, "God" decided to make the tree and place it where he knew it would do the most damage. And all sin and death have lead from "God's" decision to both create the tree, and place it where he did.

So "God" is responsible for every death ever. If anything before this tree existed death did not, so "Satan" only even gained the ability to kill people after "God" created the ability for him to be able to do so. If "God" were ever to intervene in any human affair ever it should have been this one thing. To stop himself from making a tree to enslave the entire human race for eternity. That one intervention would have saved more lives than any other act he could ever perform. And what is worst is he wouldn't have even needed to actively intervene and do something (such as not give snakes larynxes), he would have had to not do something, to decided not to take an action he knowingly decided to take.

Make no mistake, "God" did it on purpose and wanted this out come.
...where any of it true anyway, which it isn't, of course..."

...
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