God was not in Sandy Hook
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02-01-2013, 08:18 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
So God values freewill over innocent life? Dodgy Your buddy's god has his priorities so far up his almighty ass he gets to eat his dinner twice.

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02-01-2013, 08:29 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
Oh but his ways are mysterious....and we poor saps aren't supposed to understand them....

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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02-01-2013, 09:01 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
Having god taught in churches doesn't prevent killings in church. There have been many murders of pastors in church, along with others of the congregation. Obviously having god in a church doesn't prevent violence.

But do you what does help to prevent violence. Better gun control laws.
No god in UK schools or Australia schools and how many school shootings do they have ? ZERO
Why is that ? It's because they have better gun control laws.

If you want more god in schools then you also must want more child molestations.
God seems to be peachy keen ok with those.

A world view that includes gods are barbaric in nature because people who idolize the torturing and public killing of another human being just so they can have imaginary sins removed from their psychic chalkboard of naughty deeds are utterly disgusting pieces of filth.

Oh wait, that's what their religion teaches them that they are. And they want their children to be brought up also having the same filthy mindset in order to keep control of their kids and of course later on, their money.

This whole notion of "god can't stop the man because that would go against his free will" is utter crap too.

Let's pretend I'm a god for a second. "Hmmm guy with lots of guns going toward school"
(turn guns into flowers and cause ground around man to become quicksand)
I haven't messed with his freewill at all. I haven't stopped his muscles from moving or altered his thought patterns at all.

He now simply has no guns and must concentrate on his own survival.
Bypassing all that freewill crap is a piece of cake if that truly is the excuse christians want to use.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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03-01-2013, 10:13 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
Honestly, the free will argument is no better to me than the separation of church and state argument and theists who give a god a pass for it get no pass from me.

If a friend that I'm with commits a heinous crime and I do absolutely nothing to stop it, could I use the excuse in court that I didn't want to interfere with the friend's free will? Come on, god role modeled for me that it's the right thing to do...

...that bastard! Dodgy


I just don't get how people can excuse god about these things. Yes, I was one of those believers once, but these types of things are exactly what started my doubts. What's wrong with people that they can be so blind! Angry

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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03-01-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
Ain't indoctrination grand?
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03-01-2013, 11:27 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 10:13 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Honestly, the free will argument is no better to me than the separation of church and state argument and theists who give a god a pass for it get no pass from me.

If a friend that I'm with commits a heinous crime and I do absolutely nothing to stop it, could I use the excuse in court that I didn't want to interfere with the friend's free will? Come on, god role modeled for me that it's the right thing to do...

...that bastard! Dodgy


I just don't get how people can excuse god about these things. Yes, I was one of those believers once, but these types of things are exactly what started my doubts. What's wrong with people that they can be so blind! Angry
Well, I get it on a bigger scale - for god, the question is just black and white, either you get the free will to worship who you want, live how you want, and be your own person, or god essentially enslaves you, forces you into a strait jacket of specific behaviors, specific rituals, and a specific lifestyle. With god, your choice is conform perfectly or burn in hell. If he proves himself, interferes in your life, creates miracles to convince you, etc., he's forcing you into perfect conformity with his will. You completely lose all your freewill forever, at least regarding faith and all the rules and rituals that go along with it.

That's a much bigger scale than you preventing your friend from committing a crime - after you're done preventing the crime, your friend still has freewill for the rest of his life to do whatever he wants.

There is a difference.

Sure, it's just a tool for apologists to explain why god is hiding, so he can give us free will therefore he's not willing to let us know for sure that he exists. Blah, blah, blah. Sure it's just all part of the indoctrination. But at least it's a little more nuanced a concept than simply one mortal stopping another mortal from committing a crime.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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03-01-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
I don't agree. After god is done preventing a crime, the criminal too would have free will for the rest of his life.

What does it matter who prevents it as long as the crime is stopped?

God doesn't even have to interfere with free will exactly in order to stop it. With Sandy Hook, he could have let the guy go all the way, but then the gun wouldn't fire, for example. The free will choices would not have been stopped.

I understand it's really more complicated. The scenario changes when the desired outcome of the free will action isn't achieved. It may influence future free will choices in some way, for example. I also understand that the concept of a creator god granting free will and refusing to interfere is far more complex than the example I gave with myself and a friend. But really, it makes little difference to the principle involved.

No god gets a pass from me for preferring our free will over the lives of those innocent 1st graders.

There are also plenty of limited free will scenarios that would be far better in my opinion. For example, you are given free will until you make the wrong choice. With Sandy Hook, the minute the guy was about to pull the trigger... zap!... he's removed from earth. No one is hurt, free will was only interfered with when it went too far in a bad direction, and the world no longer has to deal with that person at all. I mean, god is supposedly going to send the guy to hell anyway. Why wait until he has really slaughtered many innocent children? Will could be mostly free, restricted only by a subset of allowable choices and the world would be better, not worse

Furthermore, the whole "god doesn't want to interfere" argument is silly (and I realize you're not making that argument) in the face of supposed miracles, saintly apparitions, Jesus himself, Noah's ark, Moses, the divinely inspired bible, the infallible Pope, blah, blah, blah. For a guy who doesn't want to interfere or reveal himself to us, he sure can't seem to keep his hands out of the cookie jar!

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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03-01-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
What I don't understand about this argument is this: If God doesn't stop a mass murder, wouldn't the logic have to effectively be, "This murderer's free will is of a higher priority than the free will of 28 other people who will have their free will robbed of them by being murdered." The logic that one has to follow to form a statement of this sort is impossible without a radical distortion of reality.
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03-01-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
Enough with the God excuse and secularism being responsible for everything if he is so into freewill, because secularism does not kick god out of anything, it only removes a mandatory enforcement of god onto others, so these people and their freewill babble should understand enforcing that mandatory religious practice takes away the freewill they advertise. Secularism maintains one's choice to practice whilst at the same time maintaining another's choice to not practice, that is why it is so important, everybody wins.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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03-01-2013, 12:58 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
So what I have never really understood about the free will argument is there is no mention of the free will of the victim. So...the victims don't have the free will not to be victims? Did they not exercise enough free will to not be victims? is there a proportional amount of free will formula at work? or does "god" only give a shit about the free will of an assailant...just sayin'
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