God was not in Sandy Hook
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03-01-2013, 01:16 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
I'm more interested in what they have to say about freewill in the Catholic church, all those abused children in buildings god has never been kicked out of. Yeah, right.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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03-01-2013, 01:17 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
It's more subtle than that.

You and I have the freewill to kill anyone we want. Yes, that robs the victim of freewill. When we do that, does anyone say "see, it's a miracle that proves god's existence"? No, not at all.

But if god intervened and saved the victim, everyone would be shouting that a miracle happened. OK, so what, what's one little miracle? What if the Sandy Hook killer's gun had jammed and been useless? Nobody died. Heck, the guy might not even get jail time, or very little, since he never actually committed any crime other than carrying firearms into the school. That would have been a simple enough miracle, everyone lives, right?

But what about next time some other killer goes somewhere to kill people? God intervenes again, right? Another jammed gun? What about next time, and the time after that, and the next 100 times? Next 1,000 times? If god doesn't intervene in some of those, everyone would be arguing the same things as we are now, so he better intervene in all of them.

And what will we be saying, a decade from now, when we look back at the 73 attempted murders by 73 different gunmen in 73 different places, an nobody ever got shot because all 73 of them had something wrong with their guns or ammo?

You know the priests would be all over that. It's a miracle. And science would have no answer. We can take those same guns out and shoot deer, elk, even elephants if we want to, killing anything we shoot at. Just not people. That would be pretty freaking miraculous.

Suddenly it wouldn't just be 73 murderers and 73+ victims whose freewill was influenced, but 7 billion humans would all see that god is intervening to save people. 7 billion new converts (although we may not yet know which religion to convert to). 7 billion people slavishly devout to god since he is now choosing to reveal himself in such an obvious way.

God is obviously choosing not to start down this slippery slope that will end up revealing himself to all of us such that we all no longer have the freewill to live our own lives how we want to - once we all know, KNOW, abso freaking lutely KNOW with total certainty that god is real, hell is real, and we better follow every rule and every ritual to guarantee we get heaven instead of hell, then nobody has freewill anymore.

7 billion slaves.

Apparently god doesn't want that, or he'd just be walking around, or flying around, dropping miracles and revelations everywhere he goes. So to keep from enslaving us all, he hides himself from us.

Which means you and I are free to murder people because even though we rob our victims of freewill, we still leave freewill for the 7 billion survivors of our killing spree. It also means you and I are free to stop murderers, robbing them of their freewill to kill people, but still leaving freewill for the 7 billion people we didn't interfere with.

But god can't do any of that.

So yeah, it's all just a tool of the apologists and I don't believe a word of it, but it's a subtle tool that cannot be so easily debunked by arguing about the freewill of the victims.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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03-01-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 12:58 PM)BioPsychMS Wrote:  So what I have never really understood about the free will argument is there is no mention of the free will of the victim. So...the victims don't have the free will not to be victims? Did they not exercise enough free will to not be victims? is there a proportional amount of free will formula at work? or does "god" only give a shit about the free will of an assailant...just sayin'
That's the problem. People are concerned about "their" rights or free will, and not the rights or "free-will" of others.

I think that's why the whole "free will" idea just doesn't sit well with me.
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03-01-2013, 01:26 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 01:18 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 12:58 PM)BioPsychMS Wrote:  So what I have never really understood about the free will argument is there is no mention of the free will of the victim. So...the victims don't have the free will not to be victims? Did they not exercise enough free will to not be victims? is there a proportional amount of free will formula at work? or does "god" only give a shit about the free will of an assailant...just sayin'
That's the problem. People are concerned about "their" rights or free will, and not the rights or "free-will" of others.

I think that's why the whole "free will" idea just doesn't sit well with me.
And well it shouldn't. It's a tool the apologists use to continue justifying the subjugation of the religious followers. It's the irrational explanation of why we are supposed to believe in a god that might be just a figment of our imagination. It's the lame excuse they use to explain why god doesn't just reveal his magnificent self to us all and eliminate all doubt and denial in one grand miraculous gesture.

It's bullshit.

But it's subtle and sneaky and virtually irrefutable for anyone coming in with a presupposition that god is real and that he doesn't want to force any of us to worship him.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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03-01-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 01:17 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  It's more subtle than that.

You and I have the freewill to kill anyone we want. Yes, that robs the victim of freewill. When we do that, does anyone say "see, it's a miracle that proves god's existence"? No, not at all.

But if god intervened and saved the victim, everyone would be shouting that a miracle happened. OK, so what, what's one little miracle? What if the Sandy Hook killer's gun had jammed and been useless? Nobody died. Heck, the guy might not even get jail time, or very little, since he never actually committed any crime other than carrying firearms into the school. That would have been a simple enough miracle, everyone lives, right?

But what about next time some other killer goes somewhere to kill people? God intervenes again, right? Another jammed gun? What about next time, and the time after that, and the next 100 times? Next 1,000 times? If god doesn't intervene in some of those, everyone would be arguing the same things as we are now, so he better intervene in all of them.

And what will we be saying, a decade from now, when we look back at the 73 attempted murders by 73 different gunmen in 73 different places, an nobody ever got shot because all 73 of them had something wrong with their guns or ammo?

You know the priests would be all over that. It's a miracle. And science would have no answer. We can take those same guns out and shoot deer, elk, even elephants if we want to, killing anything we shoot at. Just not people. That would be pretty freaking miraculous.

Suddenly it wouldn't just be 73 murderers and 73+ victims whose freewill was influenced, but 7 billion humans would all see that god is intervening to save people. 7 billion new converts (although we may not yet know which religion to convert to). 7 billion people slavishly devout to god since he is now choosing to reveal himself in such an obvious way.

God is obviously choosing not to start down this slippery slope that will end up revealing himself to all of us such that we all no longer have the freewill to live our own lives how we want to - once we all know, KNOW, abso freaking lutely KNOW with total certainty that god is real, hell is real, and we better follow every rule and every ritual to guarantee we get heaven instead of hell, then nobody has freewill anymore.

7 billion slaves.

Apparently god doesn't want that, or he'd just be walking around, or flying around, dropping miracles and revelations everywhere he goes. So to keep from enslaving us all, he hides himself from us.

Which means you and I are free to murder people because even though we rob our victims of freewill, we still leave freewill for the 7 billion survivors of our killing spree. It also means you and I are free to stop murderers, robbing them of their freewill to kill people, but still leaving freewill for the 7 billion people we didn't interfere with.

But god can't do any of that.

So yeah, it's all just a tool of the apologists and I don't believe a word of it, but it's a subtle tool that cannot be so easily debunked by arguing about the freewill of the victims.
How would God proving he exists, something that the Bible is apparently supposed to do, take away free will? People would be confronted by facts, but they would still have an option of following or breaking rules. Even though the concept of free will actually makes no sense in the Universe that we live in, the illusion of free will would remain as perfectly intact in every aspect of our lives besides than the guesswork relating to whether or not a celestial overlord exists.
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03-01-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 01:26 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  It's bullshit.

Couldn't agree more Thumbsup

Quote:But it's subtle and sneaky and virtually irrefutable for anyone coming in with a presupposition that god is real and that he doesn't want to force any of us to worship him.

The entire argument is simplistic and indefensible in any real sense. It is goal post shifting by theists, not unlike the shifting that occurs for transitional species, they always want the transition of the transition of the transition, essentially they want to watch it friggin happen which is, well, simplistic.
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03-01-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 01:36 PM)DylanC Wrote:  How would God proving he exists, something that the Bible is apparently supposed to do, take away free will? People would be confronted by facts, but they would still have an option of following or breaking rules. Even though the concept of free will actually makes no sense in the Universe that we live in, the illusion of free will would remain as perfectly intact in every aspect of our lives besides than the guesswork relating to whether or not a celestial overlord exists.
Would you have freewill, at least where religion and all the rules and rituals and rigmarole apply?

Hypothetically, if Yahweh came to you today and proved, PROVED himself to be real in such a way that you yourself are left with no doubt at all, he proves himself and tells you that you must become a baptist and do all the baptist stuff or thou wilt surely burn in hellfire for all eternity - if that happened, would you exercise freewill and ignore god's instructions?

Of course not. No sane person would. I despise Yahweh (or more accurately, I despise what the imaginary Yahweh construct represents). If he were real, I would despise him all the more. But if he revealed himself to me today and told me to become a baptist, I would make a beeline for the nearest baptist church (they're a little sparse here in Utah) and get indoctrinated right away - no amount of disgust or despise or disapproval of Yahweh would convince me to choose an eternity in hell.

Eternity is a long time. A really long time.

I have maybe another 30 or 40 years, max, of debasing myself in a baptist church and then heaven forever. Or 30-40 years of freewill and then hell forever. That's an easy choice. I would even follow every single rule, show up for every ritual, go on missions, say hallelujah, never miss a prayer, etc., just to be sure I dot every T and cross every I to get myself into heaven. (I did that on purpose, of course).

That's the freewill that god is supposedly letting us have by hiding from us.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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03-01-2013, 02:27 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 01:52 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 01:36 PM)DylanC Wrote:  How would God proving he exists, something that the Bible is apparently supposed to do, take away free will? People would be confronted by facts, but they would still have an option of following or breaking rules. Even though the concept of free will actually makes no sense in the Universe that we live in, the illusion of free will would remain as perfectly intact in every aspect of our lives besides than the guesswork relating to whether or not a celestial overlord exists.
Would you have freewill, at least where religion and all the rules and rituals and rigmarole apply?

Hypothetically, if Yahweh came to you today and proved, PROVED himself to be real in such a way that you yourself are left with no doubt at all, he proves himself and tells you that you must become a baptist and do all the baptist stuff or thou wilt surely burn in hellfire for all eternity - if that happened, would you exercise freewill and ignore god's instructions?

Of course not. No sane person would. I despise Yahweh (or more accurately, I despise what the imaginary Yahweh construct represents). If he were real, I would despise him all the more. But if he revealed himself to me today and told me to become a baptist, I would make a beeline for the nearest baptist church (they're a little sparse here in Utah) and get indoctrinated right away - no amount of disgust or despise or disapproval of Yahweh would convince me to choose an eternity in hell.

Eternity is a long time. A really long time.

I have maybe another 30 or 40 years, max, of debasing myself in a baptist church and then heaven forever. Or 30-40 years of freewill and then hell forever. That's an easy choice. I would even follow every single rule, show up for every ritual, go on missions, say hallelujah, never miss a prayer, etc., just to be sure I dot every T and cross every I to get myself into heaven. (I did that on purpose, of course).

That's the freewill that god is supposedly letting us have by hiding from us.
It is a very sneaky argument, but it still throws out several presuppositions which make it hard to take seriously.

1. God would prefer us to have a limited time with our precious free will in exchange for an eternity of suffering if we exercise it wrong (or in the case of the evidence for/against him, if we exercise it correctly).

2. That the person who experienced God isn't absolutely delusional. I would more likely go to a doctor than a church.

3. That everyone would choose to worship him even with proof of his existence. I would choose an eternity of suffering with people like myself than in "heaven" with all of the snotty Christians worshiping something that would have to be absolutely gruesome and detestable.. forever. The idea is worse than searing pain to me, and I know to many others who acknowledge the horrors of the Christian God as shown in the Bible.

4. That free will even exists.
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03-01-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 02:27 PM)DylanC Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 01:52 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Would you have freewill, at least where religion and all the rules and rituals and rigmarole apply?

Hypothetically, if Yahweh came to you today and proved, PROVED himself to be real in such a way that you yourself are left with no doubt at all, he proves himself and tells you that you must become a baptist and do all the baptist stuff or thou wilt surely burn in hellfire for all eternity - if that happened, would you exercise freewill and ignore god's instructions?

Of course not. No sane person would. I despise Yahweh (or more accurately, I despise what the imaginary Yahweh construct represents). If he were real, I would despise him all the more. But if he revealed himself to me today and told me to become a baptist, I would make a beeline for the nearest baptist church (they're a little sparse here in Utah) and get indoctrinated right away - no amount of disgust or despise or disapproval of Yahweh would convince me to choose an eternity in hell.

Eternity is a long time. A really long time.

I have maybe another 30 or 40 years, max, of debasing myself in a baptist church and then heaven forever. Or 30-40 years of freewill and then hell forever. That's an easy choice. I would even follow every single rule, show up for every ritual, go on missions, say hallelujah, never miss a prayer, etc., just to be sure I dot every T and cross every I to get myself into heaven. (I did that on purpose, of course).

That's the freewill that god is supposedly letting us have by hiding from us.
It is a very sneaky argument, but it still throws out several presuppositions which make it hard to take seriously.

1. God would prefer us to have a limited time with our precious free will in exchange for an eternity of suffering if we exercise it wrong (or in the case of the evidence for/against him, if we exercise it correctly).

2. That the person who experienced God isn't absolutely delusional. I would more likely go to a doctor than a church.

3. That everyone would choose to worship him even with proof of his existence. I would choose an eternity of suffering with people like myself than in "heaven" with all of the snotty Christians worshiping something that would have to be absolutely gruesome and detestable.. forever. The idea is worse than searing pain to me, and I know to many others who acknowledge the horrors of the Christian God as shown in the Bible.

4. That free will even exists.

See, that's my issue. I have a good friend who will tell me that god gave us free will...I've never understood that premise -- since she believes she has no choice but to believe in god -- because he's "revealed himself to her" in the form of ghosts and personal anecdotal crap that to me proves nothing (exept that she's teetering on crazy).

Therefore she has no "free will" to decide if what she believes is real or not. Yet, at the same time I don't feel I really have "free will" either. I live in a society and must abide by the rules of that society, killing, stealing, lying etc., are counter productive to the society.

I find it equally interesting, god gets all the credit for good things that happen (rain, someone being lifted from a tornado ravaged home, money, some football player making a touchdown -- but bears no blame for bad, like Sandy Hook, tornadoes, famine, children starving, global catastrophes, war, crimes against humanity....
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03-01-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(03-01-2013 02:54 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  See, that's my issue. I have a good friend who will tell me that god gave us free will...I've never understood that premise -- since she believes she has no choice but to believe in god -- because he's "revealed himself to her" in the form of ghosts and personal anecdotal crap that to me proves nothing (exept that she's teetering on crazy).

Therefore she has no "free will" to decide if what she believes is real or not. Yet, at the same time I don't feel I really have "free will" either. I live in a society and must abide by the rules of that society, killing, stealing, lying etc., are counter productive to the society.

I find it equally interesting, god gets all the credit for good things that happen (rain, someone being lifted from a tornado ravaged home, money, some football player making a touchdown -- but bears no blame for bad, like Sandy Hook, tornadoes, famine, children starving, global catastrophes, war, crimes against humanity....

Aye, that's the rub.

So many people have personal testimony of miraculous messages, visions, or other sensations that they believe is direct contact with God or Jesus or the H.G. But if this really is the divine trinity proving his/its/their existence, then that completely denies freewill and refutes even the semblance of legitimacy the freewill argument tries to maintain.

As to god getting credit for the good and avoiding blame for the bad, that's a whole other can of bees.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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