God was not in Sandy Hook
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07-01-2013, 06:42 AM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2013 06:56 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
I'm surprised that nobody has yet gone Devil's Advocate and played the 'There Is No Freewill' card yet.

If God is omniscient, then he would know everything that has, is, and will ever happen. If that is so, what freewill is there in following a set path? If God knows what anybody is going to do, before they do it, then they are not free to do otherwise. From a logical standpoint, in the face of an omniscient God, freewill is bunk.

Of course, there is also scientific arguments against freewill. These mainly stem from advances in neuroscience and studies with FMRI scans. That somebody monitoring our brain activity, can know what someone is going to choose before they are even aware of what they are going to choose. Much like quantum mechanic, it's not intuitive at all, but enlightening all the same. Sam Harris has a good talk about it, which I'm sure anybody can find on YouTube if they so choose.

:Edited for Grammar:

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07-01-2013, 06:49 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(07-01-2013 06:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'm surprised that nobody has yet gone Devil's Advocate and played the 'There Is No Freewill' card yet.

If God is omniscient, then he would know everything that has, is, and will ever happen. If that is so, what freewill is there in following a set path? If God knows what anybody is going to do, before they do it, then they are not free to do otherwise. From a logical standpoint, in the face of an omniscient God, freewill is bunk.

Of course, there is also scientific arguments against freewill. These mainly stem from advances in neuroscience and studies with FMRI scans. That somebody monitoring our brain activity, can know what er're going to choose before we're even aware of what we're going to choose. Much like quantum mechanic, it's not intuitive at all, but enlightening all the same. Sam Harris has a good talk about it, which I'm sure anybody can find on YouTube if they so choose.


The problem goes away if omniscience means knowing everything that is knowable, with the future not being knowable as it has not yet happened.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-01-2013, 06:53 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(07-01-2013 06:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  The problem goes away if omniscience means knowing everything that is knowable, with the future not being knowable as it has not yet happened.
Fair enough, but that's the trouble with defining a God with such ambiguous attributes. You'd think that if knowing God's nature was so important, and misinterpreting it can lead to such dire consequences, that God would be a bit more careful in spelling things out precisely. Or, you know, doing at least as well as someone with access to the Internet and Google...

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07-01-2013, 07:39 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(07-01-2013 06:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-01-2013 06:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  The problem goes away if omniscience means knowing everything that is knowable, with the future not being knowable as it has not yet happened.
Fair enough, but that's the trouble with defining a God with such ambiguous attributes. You'd think that if knowing God's nature was so important, and misinterpreting it can lead to such dire consequences, that God would be a bit more careful in spelling things out precisely. Or, you know, doing at least as well as someone with access to the Internet and Google...


No internet; God is Amish.

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07-01-2013, 08:20 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
Yes why is it that religious people always try to rationalize violence towards innocent individuals (in this case, little children) as "God is angry"? It makes absolutely no sense at all. If a truly good God existed , then he/she/it would not let this horrible tragedy happen.
Also, the free will argument is completely ridiculous because there are plenty of horrible crimes committed by those who are clearly insane (a brain defect or tumor, or other).
The reason why "God was not in Sandy Hook" is obvious. God wan't there because God is the sole invention of man. Man created God in his own image.
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07-01-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
When you corner a theist in a situation where he, if he persists in his delusion, will look like a heartless motherfucker he might actually recant? Hm, noted.

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07-01-2013, 06:52 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(07-01-2013 08:20 AM)lucyg77 Wrote:  Yes why is it that religious people always try to rationalize violence towards innocent individuals (in this case, little children) as "God is angry"? It makes absolutely no sense at all. If a truly good God existed , then he/she/it would not let this horrible tragedy happen.
Also, the free will argument is completely ridiculous because there are plenty of horrible crimes committed by those who are clearly insane (a brain defect or tumor, or other).
The reason why "God was not in Sandy Hook" is obvious. God wan't there because God is the sole invention of man. Man created God in his own image.

What happened there and events like it should make theists question the existence of God.

But I imagine, no...I KNOW they are saying it was all part of his "plan". Pretty shitty excuse for not giving the question of God's existence even one tiny thought.

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08-01-2013, 01:30 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(07-01-2013 07:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-01-2013 06:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Fair enough, but that's the trouble with defining a God with such ambiguous attributes. You'd think that if knowing God's nature was so important, and misinterpreting it can lead to such dire consequences, that God would be a bit more careful in spelling things out precisely. Or, you know, doing at least as well as someone with access to the Internet and Google...


No internet; God is Amish.

This would be a lot funnier, if the Amish didn't give such creepy dead-eye stares while they're shopping at Wal-Mart... Blink

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08-01-2013, 07:32 AM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
It's interesting that, regarding Sandy Hook and other tragedies, religious people throw out the "free will" card and the "Gods plan" card. These 2 things cancel each other out. If God has a plan, then that throws "free will" out the window. The reverse is equally as ridiculous. If we have "free will", then it throws "Gods plan" out the window. Having both makes absolutely no sense.
Judge Judy says this so eloquently on her show from time to time: "IF IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE, IT ISN'T TRUE". This philosophy goes also for the bible, creationism, and all other bits of fantasy.

"Man created God in his own image"
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08-01-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: God was not in Sandy Hook
(08-01-2013 07:32 AM)lucyg77 Wrote:  It's interesting that, regarding Sandy Hook and other tragedies, religious people throw out the "free will" card and the "Gods plan" card. These 2 things cancel each other out. If God has a plan, then that throws "free will" out the window. The reverse is equally as ridiculous. If we have "free will", then it throws "Gods plan" out the window. Having both makes absolutely no sense.
Judge Judy says this so eloquently on her show from time to time: "IF IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE, IT ISN'T TRUE". This philosophy goes also for the bible, creationism, and all other bits of fantasy.

"Man created God in his own image"
Yep.

Freewill and an omniscient/omnipotent God cannot coexist.

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