Gods that aren't all powerfull
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05-05-2014, 10:01 PM
Gods that aren't all powerfull
I've run across people who say that a god doesn't have to be omnipotent, omniscient, ect. Then they talk about gods like thor or zues who weren't all powerful. How do you respond to this?
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05-05-2014, 10:09 PM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
(05-05-2014 10:01 PM)trogit Wrote:  I've run across people who say that a god doesn't have to be omnipotent, omniscient, ect. Then they talk about gods like thor or zues who weren't all powerful. How do you respond to this?

They all lack evidence, even if the non-omnipotent ones don't run into logic problems.

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05-05-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
(05-05-2014 10:01 PM)trogit Wrote:  I've run across people who say that a god doesn't have to be omnipotent, omniscient, ect. Then they talk about gods like thor or zues who weren't all powerful. How do you respond to this?
I'm not sure what you mean. Dragons aren't omnipotent or omniscient, but I still don't seen any evidence they aren't mythical. Is there any more reason to believe in those gods than those dragons?
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05-05-2014, 10:32 PM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
Zeus and Thor were part of polytheistic religions, so they were assigned a duty, and were believed to be responsible for certain events.

In a monotheistic religion, one god is responsible for everything.

You have to ask at what point does a being become powerful enough to be classed as "God"... The criteria by which a god is defined has never been set out by monotheistic religions.

For fundamentalists, God has to be omnipotent or their beliefs simply fall apart.

Its the moderates who are difficult to challenge in a debate... Their versions of god (and there are many) range from the literal belief in an invisible man in the sky, to some vague "energy"... Often their definition changes as the converstation goes on.

Really moderates are no more rational or critical thinking than fundamentalists. Its simply a different armour for their beliefs. Fundamentalists try to protect their beliefs with aggressive tactics, and hard, immovable walls of sheer denial.

Moderates on the other hand go for the passive, soft, malleable approach, in which their belief is deliberately poorly defined, this allows it to shape shift, and absorb or dodge any criticism. Its a very successful tactic. They will largely avoid all reference to the Bible or anything falsifiable.

In fact, from now on I will refer to moderates as "shape-shifters"... Their god is defined by the strength of whatever argument is attacking it. The only tactic I can think of that can work in a debate with these types, is to simply call them out on it... Let them know that you can see their shifting position.

You'll never defeat the shape-shifter on logic or evidence, because they reduce God down to his strongest, and simplest form... An unfalsifiable, hypothesis.

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05-05-2014, 10:47 PM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
(05-05-2014 10:01 PM)trogit Wrote:  I've run across people who say that a god doesn't have to be omnipotent, omniscient, ect. Then they talk about gods like thor or zues who weren't all powerful. How do you respond to this?

Then why call them "god/s".

P.S., that's not a rhetorical question.

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05-05-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
(05-05-2014 10:01 PM)trogit Wrote:  I've run across people who say that a god doesn't have to be omnipotent, omniscient, ect. Then they talk about gods like thor or zues who weren't all powerful. How do you respond to this?

Human mythology is pretty varied and inventive. I think the flawed, limited gods make for better stories, because they actually have obstacles that they need to break a sweat in overcoming and because they provide worthy opponents for one another. The omni-omni God of the Abrahamic tradition reads like a bad Mary-Sue fic where the author keeps telling us how awesome and perfect and unstoppable this character is, when in fact what is portrayed of the actual character is... kinda unsympathetic. Definitely NOT good writing.
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06-05-2014, 03:02 AM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
(05-05-2014 10:01 PM)trogit Wrote:  I've run across people who say that a god doesn't have to be omnipotent, omniscient, ect. Then they talk about gods like thor or zues who weren't all powerful. How do you respond to this?

Hit 'em with a hammer then give 'em a high voltage electric shock?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-05-2014, 03:25 AM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
Ask them about all those Ice Giants... Drinking Beverage

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06-05-2014, 08:09 AM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
(05-05-2014 10:32 PM)Sam Wrote:  You have to ask at what point does a being become powerful enough to be classed as "God"... The criteria by which a god is defined has never been set out by monotheistic religions.
This.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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06-05-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: Gods that aren't all powerfull
(05-05-2014 11:11 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 10:01 PM)trogit Wrote:  I've run across people who say that a god doesn't have to be omnipotent, omniscient, ect. Then they talk about gods like thor or zues who weren't all powerful. How do you respond to this?

Human mythology is pretty varied and inventive. I think the flawed, limited gods make for better stories, because they actually have obstacles that they need to break a sweat in overcoming and because they provide worthy opponents for one another. The omni-omni God of the Abrahamic tradition reads like a bad Mary-Sue fic where the author keeps telling us how awesome and perfect and unstoppable this character is, when in fact what is portrayed of the actual character is... kinda unsympathetic. Definitely NOT good writing.

I agree with this. ^^^

But here's the thing. The original ideas of the "gods" of the bible were more like Thor and Zeus, and it was in fact a pantheon just as varied as those. The "gods" of the bible weren't all powerful either. I say they, because there was never really one "god". It was later concept, conglomerated together as "God" with a big "G". But they mostly all had different names before being combined into one character. You can still read many of them in the bible. And even the ones that are the same, Yawhew, or whatever you want to call him, had different stories and characteristics attributed to "him" at different times. Characters, "gods" with different names, that once those people's lands were concured they were simply told, "Your god is the same as our god, it just that his name is not Baal, it's actually, Yawhew", then they simply added that "gods" abilities to their own "god", combining them. But still not all omni, or all perfect, or the one and only "god" in existence. The early Hebrews did not believe this, nor did they write their "god" this way.

The point being, the reason the bible reads so disjointed and imperfect as far as an all omnis "god", is because it is disjointed. It was never intended to be understood or read as all omni, anymore then Thor or Zeus was.

It's a retcon, invented hundreds of years after the writings, that the "gods" of the bible were one "god" named "God", and that he's all powerful, and all love. It doesn't fit, because it doesn't fit, and never was meant to. And now, today, apologist, and average bible believing theist have to struggle with this concept of an all omni "God" that doesn't fit "God's" own narrative.

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