Going Through Liberal vs Conservative (USA definitions)
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13-07-2017, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2017 05:25 PM by DLJ.)
Going Through Liberal vs Conservative (USA definitions)
So, I decided to search up the general idea of what both sides have. This thread if me going through both sides and writing my response and thoughts. As it goes through each stance the two have and gives a small summary of what to expect. Just going to do a few, about five or six.

Link: http://wp.lps.org/tnettle/files/2013/12/...vative.pdf

Issue: Death Penitaly
Liberal -
Quote:We should abolish the death penalty. The death penalty is inhumane and is ‘cruel and unusual' punishment. It does not prevent crime. Imprisonment is the appropriate punishment. Every execution risks killing an innocent person.
Conservative -
Quote:The death penalty is a punishment that fits the crime; it is neither ‘cruel' nor ‘unusual'. Executing a murderer is the appropriate punishment for taking an innocent life.

I find myself torn on this, while yes we risk killing an innocent, when cases are torn if the person truly killed or not. We still have crowded prisons, harden criminals who often have been in there more than once. Who we are sure have killed people, yet we still keep them there. I don't think anyone could kill another when it comes to the death penalty, however should the person have killed, and we are sure they have, it seems to fit the crime rather them rotting in jail.

Issue: Economy
Liberal:
Quote:Favor a market system in which government regulates the economy. We need government to protect us against big businesses. Unlike the private sector, the government is motivated by public interest. We need government regulation to level the playing field.
Conservative:
Quote:The free market system, competitive capitalism,
and private enterprise afford the widest opportunity and the highest standard of living for all. Free markets produce more economic growth, more jobs and higher standards of living than those systems burdened by excessive government regulation

The hard part about this one is that while free market systems do create more jobs and a higher standard of living, the wage is not keeping up with this stander of living. Big Businesses tend to run the playing field as of now, making it hard to get jobs for a livable wage. With private enterprises, it's often unsure what to expect, and they can do as they please with employees.

Issue: Religion
Liberal:
Quote:Support the separation of church and state. Religious expression has no place in government. Support the removal of all references to God in public and government spaces. Religion should not interfere with
government.
Conservative:
Quote:The phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution. The First Amendment to the Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." This prevents the government from establishing a national church. However, it does not prevent God from being acknowledged in schools and
government buildings. Oppose the removal of symbols of Christian heritage from public and government spaces. Government should not interfere with religion
and religious freedom.

Here is when things get annoying. Conservatives clearly say they are for upholding the constitution, and some go as far as to say we do not need amendments. However, that would also take away freedom of speech and press. 'Separation of Church and State' is just that, with how many believe in different religions, one religion shouldn't preside and force itself over all others. I don't think we should stop kids form praying, if they want to pray they can, but public pray is different. No one should be tried by the government should they chose not to be a Christian. I could go into more detail, but it's been done more than once.
Plus those last two endings are just the same phrase just twisted to sound different. The government shouldn't interfere with religion or it's freedom, and should not be religious themselves.

Issue: Taxes
Liberal -
Quote:Support higher taxes and a larger government. High taxes allow the government to do good and create jobs. We need high taxes for social welfare programs, to provide for the poor. We can't afford to cut taxes.
Conservative -
Quote:Support lower taxes and a smaller government. Lower taxes create more incentive for people to work, save, invest, and engage in entrepreneurial endeavors. Money is best spent by those who earn it.

While yes, free money is never going to happen. Lower taxes wouldn't really get things done either, however that tax money should go to things that matter not watching grass grow or if a gay man penis is bigger than a straight mans.
Higher taxes wouldn't be just a set thing, be better if it was based on a persons income rather than a set number. And people who avoid paying taxes should receive punishment, and the person making sure they couldn't should be punished as well. However, it shouldn't be so overly high on the rich, but should be based on how much they make per year. It seems fair to me that, though you worked for that money, you should be pulling you're fair share rather than being greedy.
Taxes help us all, by not paying taxes you're only making things worse.

That's just a few points on here, anyone can look it over and give their thoughts on the two spectrum and give their thoughts.

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

- George Carlin
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13-07-2017, 11:59 AM
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
Thanks for a generally balanced treatment.

However, I would disagree on "taxes". While your statements may be correct in theory (what the parties claim to want to do), I have never seen any evidence that Democrats tax more than Republicans in reality. We have had tax hikes and tax cuts from both parties. The only difference I see is that they tend to want to spend the tax money on different things.

I will agree that the parties differ on how much tax rich people should pay. But I see no clear-cut difference on taxation in general.
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13-07-2017, 12:07 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2017 12:22 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
(13-07-2017 11:44 AM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  Issue: Death Penalty

Liberal AND Conservative. Dump it.
Proven not to be a deterrent. Cheaper to lock them up and throw away the key, (high cost of many appeals).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-07-2017, 12:25 PM
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
(13-07-2017 12:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-07-2017 11:44 AM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  Issue: Death Penalty

Liberal AND Conservative. Dump it.

Not really. The majority of republicans support the death penalty (80% or more I believe). It's written into the official GOP platform.

"The constitutionality of the death penalty is firmly settled by its explicit mention in the Fifth Amendment."

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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13-07-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
(13-07-2017 12:25 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(13-07-2017 12:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Liberal AND Conservative. Dump it.

Not really. The majority of republicans support the death penalty (80% or more I believe). It's written into the official GOP platform.

"The constitutionality of the death penalty is firmly settled by its explicit mention in the Fifth Amendment."

No one said who supported what, or why, or the legality of it. (The MAJORITY of the Western world has concluded it's inhumane).

The REAL "conservative" (pro-life) position WOULD be to drop it.
It's not effective, (proven) and it's cheaper.
People today think "justice" means "getting justice for" ... ie "vengeance". There is no way to bring about a "state of justice" by killing someone, (else).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-07-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
Government being motivated by public interest is quite a stretch I would say at least going by my experience. What motivates gov is staying in power I would say and if that coincides with doing something good then something good will be done. If not...

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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13-07-2017, 01:09 PM
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he done
Take all the rope in Texas
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street.
For all the people to see

Justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys
You got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we’ll sing a victory tune
We’ll all meet back at the local saloon

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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13-07-2017, 01:10 PM
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
I am a liberal, that might become obvious shortly, but I haven't always been. Trying to do this (give equal treatment to what liberals and conservatives say they want vs what they actually do) is what pushed me further from the right and helped me realize I agreed with the left on more things than I realized.

I'll give my thoughts (that some others have also expressed)
Death Penalty:
1) It appears we have already put innocent people to death
2) It isn't a deterrent to committing crime
3) Our prison population is a separate problem that shouldn't factor into this (we jail too many because of the failed "War on Drugs')
4) Jail should be more than punishment, it should also be rehabilitative if the person is capable. There is nothing rehabilitative about capital punishment
5) The victims might get closure with the death of a criminal, but they don't get any additional justice from the person's death and it doesn't make what happened right
6) It is expensive because of the constant string of appeals
7) Many other first world countries have already gotten rid of it

Economy:
Corporations and businesses exist to make money. That is their entire purpose. Expecting them to act against their own self-interests is naive. That means that regulation is the only way to ensure that corporations and businesses don't take advantage of their workers and their communities by exploiting them. While it might not be great for a businesses bottom line to have to be regulated and pay taxes, they operate in countries where the average person is supposed to be protected from them. The taxation part really bugs me when businesses are given huge tax breaks. Those taxes benefit the state and the country, which in turn benefit those of us in it (including the corporations and businesses). On top of that, if a business pays taxes and then goes out of business but leaves behind an expensive mess that has to be cleaned up by the state, who pays for that? The business probably won't (especially if they've been out of business long enough), so it falls on the taxpayers. If the corporation didn't pay its fair share of taxes, that effectively means that the taxpayers are subsidizing those profits by paying a larger proportion of the cost of clean-up than they should in a more fair system.

And on top of that, regulations help ensure that resources aren't consumed at a non-renewable/unsustainable rate. It does no one and no business any good if they destroy the ecosystem and/or community that they rely on.

Religion:
This pushed me from the right end of the political spectrum faster than just about anything else. The conservative right don't want religious freedom, they want Christian domination. They somehow see the separation of church and state as a pillar of support for the US being a "Christian nation" where the government stays out of church business but the church can still stick its nose in politics. They can fuck right off

Taxes:
The individual US taxpayer pays a lot less in taxes than other citizens living in comparable nations. We don't get as much for our money and I'd argue that's in part because we have so many people on the right end of the political spectrum trying to push for privatization of things the government should be doing. They campaign on the slogan that "big government doesn't work" and then they do their best to make sure that government agencies don't work so that they can privatize them. It is a great scam when you think about it.



I read a line in Penn Jillette's book "god No" a few years ago that I liked (I didn't like the bulk of the book actually. I disagreed with much of his religious opinion and it turned into a sort of Libertarian manifesto about halfway through). His observation was that the trope is: "Democrats want big government and Republicans want smaller government." It is complete bullshit when you look at what happens in practice though. Democrats want a stronger centralized government (federal) to ensure equal representation and protection for all Americans, regardless of what state they live in. Republicans want bigger state government and less intrusive federal government, because the Republicans have more control at the state level. Meaning that if the Republicans can slowly chip away at federal power and authority, they believe they can get by with more shit at the state level (like trying to get rid of the separation of church and state).

While there are people on the left that I don't agree with, and policies on the left that haven't worked (either have failed or haven't worked as planned), I still see the left as being more rational and more honest than the political right that seems to have been hijacked by the religious and the crazy. And on top of all of this, the GOP in Congress have done more to harm our country and obstruct our country's progress in the last decade than it has to help us. It is shameful

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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13-07-2017, 01:10 PM
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
(13-07-2017 12:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-07-2017 12:25 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Not really. The majority of republicans support the death penalty (80% or more I believe). It's written into the official GOP platform.

"The constitutionality of the death penalty is firmly settled by its explicit mention in the Fifth Amendment."

No one said who supported what, or why, or the legality of it. (The MAJORITY of the Western world has concluded it's inhumane).

The REAL "conservative" (pro-life) position WOULD be to drop it.
It's not effective, (proven) and it's cheaper.
People today think "justice" means "getting justice for" ... ie "vengeance". There is no way to bring about a "state of justice" by killing someone, (else).
In breaking down values there is more of a trend conservatives have, though in recent evaluation Bernie supporters had it more than typical liberal or Dem supporters... that value of getting their "just dues." The value of thinking unjust actors should be punished. (Hence the devotion for lock her up ideas or Bernie fans being upset of no punishment for the Wallstreet collapse)

And it's known fairness or health aren't above other values for conservatives why they don't care as much about the possible mishap or even that it's not the beat money value choice

Babies also are so called pure with their that purity love. All bottled up by religious notions of holyness.

There's a much stronger devotion to tradition and authority... which is why the conservative mind seems more likely fond of ancient texts as if they're still some pure ideas perfectly formed regardless of the world they exist in.. bible & constitution.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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13-07-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: Going Through Liberal vs Conservative
(13-07-2017 01:09 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he done
Take all the rope in Texas
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street.
For all the people to see

Justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys
You got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we’ll sing a victory tune
We’ll all meet back at the local saloon

Whether or not this actually accomplishes anything (I say no), it can only be justified, even in theory, if you are 100% certain of the guilt of the accused. In reality, this is seldom the case. I would much rather allow a guilty person to live than execute an innocent person.
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