Good Christian Love
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28-08-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 11:25 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  She identified that it isn't her choice who he is or how he is. Even in her view of the world, it's his choice. Her selfish bigotry is on her, she uses her religion to facilitate and justify her hate and bigotry. She is a hypocrite, an asshole, and deserves to feel bad for the rest of her life for her actions against her own son.

Well as a gay man I feel sorry for her just because I feel I have some insight into the torture she'll be going through inside.

I feel eternally grateful things didn't end up like that with my own mum.

Not just for myself, but also for my mum because I know that she would have died inside if it had ended up with me walking out the door for good.

I love my mother, and I expect that kid does too, despite what's happened. And she'll still love him, because she can't help it, he is her child so she is biologically programmed that way.

Like I say - no winners there.

I have forgiven all homophobes in my life. People aren't homophobic because they are "evil", they are homophobic because they are scared and don't understand homosexuality.

I'm not interested in revenge, I'm interested in making the world a better place for homosexuals, that won't arrive by hating on the bigots, it will arrive through educating parents so that if they find themselves in this situation they don't feel that their child's nature is unacceptable.

Phil
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28-08-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 10:52 AM)phil.a Wrote:  I feel sorry for all of them.

Remember that the mother will have inherited her religious beliefs from her parents.

She's unlucky enough not to have the rational thinking skills to be able to escape the beliefs, and it's costing her her own son.

Can you imagiane the psycological torture the mother will have to endure as a mother when her own son walks out the door and does not come back?

He gets to walk away into a new life.

She gets left knowing what she's done to her son.

Phil
I'm at work and can't watch the video right now. So my comment is based on the video description which includes this and I assume is accurate:
This family gave a young man two options: attend a pray the gay away intervention, or face being disowned by the very people who are supposed to love him unconditionally.

On the one hand, it's admirable that you are trying to understand each person's perspective. It must be true that this causes a lot of inner conflict for the mother as well as with the son.

However, as a father, I also know that there is almost nothing that would make me disown my children. Perhaps if one of them committed mass murders or something as bad, my heart could change. But I'm not sure I could disown them even then. But homosexuality? It's not even violent. What's so bad to warrant disowning? Offending "God"? I can say with certainty that if there was a "God" and he had presented me with the same test as Abraham, even facing his might, I would have "failed" that test. No ego wounded god could make me kill my child.

So while, yes, the mother is in some ways a victim of circumstances, how is it that she doesn't see that this goes too far when it means disowning her son? This is where she squarely gets the blame - for sticking with gawd in the face of huge cognitive dissonance. She deserves to have her son walk out and never have one thing to do with her ever again. Parent in name only. Dodgy

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28-08-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 11:49 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 11:25 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  She identified that it isn't her choice who he is or how he is. Even in her view of the world, it's his choice. Her selfish bigotry is on her, she uses her religion to facilitate and justify her hate and bigotry. She is a hypocrite, an asshole, and deserves to feel bad for the rest of her life for her actions against her own son.

Well as a gay man I feel sorry for her just because I feel I have some insight into the torture she'll be going through inside.

I feel eternally grateful things didn't end up like that with my own mum.

Not just for myself, but also for my mum because I know that she would have died inside if it had ended up with me walking out the door for good.

I love my mother, and I expect that kid does too, despite what's happened. And she'll still love him, because she can't help it, he is her child so she is biologically programmed that way.

Like I say - no winners there.

I have forgiven all homophobes in my life. People aren't homophobic because they are "evil", they are homophobic because they are scared and don't understand homosexuality.

I'm not interested in revenge, I'm interested in making the world a better place for homosexuals, that won't arrive by hating on the bigots, it will arrive through educating parents so that if they find themselves in this situation they don't feel that their child's nature is unacceptable.

Phil

I did not say she was evil. She is a deluded religious bigot who deserves no sympathy. She recognizes it is his choice (even if you follow the logic she uses in the video where she back-tracks the possibility that it isn't a choice at all), and still expects him to make her choice and her religion's choice. Fuck that woman.

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28-08-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 11:47 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 11:44 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Can you describe any evidence visible in the video that suggests she was aware she had a choice? Either in terms of what she said or the tone of her voice?

I didn't hear any uncertainty or doubt in her voice. I got the sense she did not have the slightest awareness there were any choices in the situation.

Just because we know she had choices, does not mean she knew she had choices, and if she didn't know she had a choice then she didn't really have a choice...

Phil
The point where she distinguishes between her gay friends and gay son.

I just re-played the video.

I did not hear any uncertainty in her voice.

Awareness of choice shows up as uncertainty and hesitation in the persons voice.

Or is there something else in there that you reckon I missed?

Phil
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28-08-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 11:51 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:52 AM)phil.a Wrote:  I feel sorry for all of them.

Remember that the mother will have inherited her religious beliefs from her parents.

She's unlucky enough not to have the rational thinking skills to be able to escape the beliefs, and it's costing her her own son.

Can you imagiane the psycological torture the mother will have to endure as a mother when her own son walks out the door and does not come back?

He gets to walk away into a new life.

She gets left knowing what she's done to her son.

Phil
I'm at work and can't watch the video right now. So my comment is based on the video description which includes this and I assume is accurate:
This family gave a young man two options: attend a pray the gay away intervention, or face being disowned by the very people who are supposed to love him unconditionally.

On the one hand, it's admirable that you are trying to understand each person's perspective. It must be true that this causes a lot of inner conflict for the mother as well as with the son.

However, as a father, I also know that there is almost nothing that would make me disown my children. Perhaps if one of them committed mass murders or something as bad, my heart could change. But I'm not sure I could disown them even then. But homosexuality? It's not even violent. What's so bad to warrant disowning? Offending "God"? I can say with certainty that if there was a "God" and he had presented me with the same test as Abraham, even facing his might, I would have "failed" that test. No ego wounded god could make me kill my child.

So while, yes, the mother is in some ways a victim of circumstances, how is it that she doesn't see that this goes too far when it means disowning her son? This is where she squarely gets the blame - for sticking with gawd in the face of huge cognitive dissonance. She deserves to have her son walk out and never have one thing to do with her ever again. Parent in name only. Dodgy

In this video he doesn't even get the option of 'pray it away'

For those who can't see it.
It starts just after he has told them he is gay.
Mom says she knew since he was a baby, but he is choosing to live that way.
Words are exchanged as well as some sort of skuffle where I assume they are swinging at each other, cursing each other.
They tell him he has to get out.
It ends with him asking "what is wrong with you people?"

It's heart breaking to hear his family dis own him.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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28-08-2014, 12:01 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 11:57 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  In this video he doesn't even get the option of 'pray it away'

For those who can't see it.
It starts just after he has told them he is gay.
Mom says she knew since he was a baby, but he is choosing to live that way.
Words are exchanged as well as some sort of skuffle where I assume they are swinging at each other, cursing each other.
They tell him he has to get out.
It ends with him asking "what is wrong with you people?"

It's heart breaking to hear his family dis own him.
Thanks for the summary Bows and Arrows. It sounds awful. Sad

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28-08-2014, 12:04 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 11:51 AM)Impulse Wrote:  However, as a father, I also know that there is almost nothing that would make me disown my children. Perhaps if one of them committed mass murders or something as bad, my heart could change.

Well I am glad to hear it! Your children are very fortunate to have such a father.

Although don't you see that for a religious fundamentalist, it's potentially as disturbing to have a homosexual son as to have a pedophile son or a murderer son? That's how "gay" can actually appear in their (rather ignorant) awareness.

You and me can differentiate homosexuality and pedophilia, that's because we are rational thinkers and can consider cause and effect. homosexuality = no victim, so no crime. pedophilia = victim, therefore crime. Ah, ok - so they are different, the former is OK the latter is not OK.

A religious fundamentalist can't do that. They lack the capacity to think rationally (examine cause and effect) so they lack the capacity to differentiate such things and simply have to go on what their religion tells them is unacceptable.

Of course this is an argument for atheism, but it is not an argument for hating on individuals at low (pre-rational) levels of psychological development because hating on them won't solve the underlying issue.

Phil
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28-08-2014, 12:06 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 11:54 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 11:47 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  The point where she distinguishes between her gay friends and gay son.

I just re-played the video.

I did not hear any uncertainty in her voice.

Awareness of choice shows up as uncertainty and hesitation in the persons voice.

Or is there something else in there that you reckon I missed?

Phil
Since when has awareness of choice shown itself as uncertainty - I can be aware of a choice but show no uncertainty because I believe one option to be obvious.

If she can treat her gay friends differently to her gay child - merely because he is a family member then she is aware of that distinction and thus is aware of the choice.


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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28-08-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
Odd that the mother claimed she knew he was gay since he was a baby, then contradicts herself by insisting it is a choice. I guess in the heat of the moment, the son never called her on it. Consider
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28-08-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 12:04 PM)phil.a Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 11:51 AM)Impulse Wrote:  However, as a father, I also know that there is almost nothing that would make me disown my children. Perhaps if one of them committed mass murders or something as bad, my heart could change.

Well I am glad to hear it! Your children are very fortunate to have such a father.

Although don't you see that for a religious fundamentalist, it's potentially as disturbing to have a homosexual son as to have a pedophile son or a murderer son? That's how "gay" can actually appear in their (rather ignorant) awareness.

You and me can differentiate homosexuality and pedophilia, that's because we are rational thinkers and can consider cause and effect. homosexuality = no victim, so no crime. pedophilia = victim, therefore crime. Ah, ok - so they are different, the former is OK the latter is not OK.

A religious fundamentalist can't do that. They lack the capacity to think rationally (examine cause and effect) so they lack the capacity to differentiate such things and simply have to go on what their religion tells them is unacceptable.

Of course this is an argument for atheism, but it is not an argument for hating on individuals at low (pre-rational) levels of psychological development because hating on them won't solve the underlying issue.

Phil

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you trying to give her pass based on her thinking ability (ie mental/anatomical/psychological defect?)

For me~ it's this - in Christianity there is a dual message one of hatred, one of love.

Love your neighbor as yourself
Jesus loves you
God made everyone perfect

And all sorts of other happy bullshit, but she didn't choose the happy path- which also would have fit into her religious thinking.

She chose the ' you are evil, going against gods will' etc path.

She could have said "it's all part of gods plan " and accepted her son, or at the very least not kicked him out of the house.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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