Good Christian Love
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28-08-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 12:11 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Odd that the mother claimed she knew he was gay since he was a baby, then contradicts herself by insisting it is a choice. I guess in the heat of the moment, the son never called her on it. Consider

That is very catholic reasoning. The church actually teaches it is OK to be gay as long as you do not follow through.

Quote:"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."[71]

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."[72]

[71] "Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2358". Catholic Church.
[72] "Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2359". Catholic Church.
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28-08-2014, 12:21 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 12:17 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 12:11 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Odd that the mother claimed she knew he was gay since he was a baby, then contradicts herself by insisting it is a choice. I guess in the heat of the moment, the son never called her on it. Consider

That is very catholic reasoning. The church actually teaches it is OK to be gay as long as you do not follow through.

Quote:"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."[71]

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."[72]

[71] "Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2358". Catholic Church.
[72] "Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2359". Catholic Church.

I got the impression from the video that he had not acted on it, but I might wrong, or it didn't say and I just assumed it based on the the conversation.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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28-08-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 12:06 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  Since when has awareness of choice shown itself as uncertainty - I can be aware of a choice but show no uncertainty because I believe one option to be obvious.

OK - although I think that's effectively just what I said stated differently.

Yes - she believes the correct choice is "obvious".

Surely you've had the experience in life of making a choice which turned out to be a very bad choice but which at the time seemed "obviously" the right choice? Well - if you had awareness it was quite such a bad choice at the time, surely it's reasonable to suppose you would not have made the choice.

Our choices are heavily shaped by our emotions, and our emotions aren't chosen, they are a product of our conditioning. Especially for people at low levels of development.

Quote:If she can treat her gay friends differently to her gay child - merely because he is a family member then she is aware of that distinction and thus is aware of the choice.

Humans have a profoundly different psychological relationship with direct blood relatives than they do with anyone else, you can't put them in the same categories in terms of expected behaviour.

And, relationships with different classes of people get put in different psycological boxes. Eg perhaps you have noticed how racist people quite often have "special case" friendships with people of other races, where they manage to compartmentalise the specific friendship from their general beliefs?

Human psychologies are quite fractured and inconsistent things, generally speaking.

Phil
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28-08-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 12:17 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you trying to give her pass based on her thinking ability (ie mental/anatomical/psychological defect?)

No, not trying to give her a "pass".

I am a gay man - do you think I find her behaviour acceptable?

However: what have I become if I hate on haters? If I'm bigoted towards bigots? I don't see that fixing things any time soon.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that"

~ Martin Luther King

Phil
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28-08-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
I'm sorry but most of the people who are being hard on her are not 'haters'.

But in certain cases a lack of education does not excuse behaviour - in the same way that ignorance of criminal law isn't an excuse in court that is valid.

If someone's views are reprehensible then we are entitled and at certain points required to tell them, be it homophobia, racism, misogyny or any other prejudice of this kind...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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28-08-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
As Hitchens put it when talking about racists "he may know no better, but that's not going to save him from my condemnation - and nor should it"


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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28-08-2014, 12:45 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
CiderThinker:

To clarify, I'm not suggesting letting her off the hook, I am suggesting bringing a quality of response to the situation which might help wake her up.

The mother shows signs of being at pre-rational levels of development, e.g. shows signs of having the psychological perspective you might have had when you were about 8 years old.

How would you treat an 8y/o who has just treated a homosexual badly?

Would you yell at them and call them a filthy narrow minded bigot?

Would that help them understand what they had done?

Phil
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28-08-2014, 12:47 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 12:36 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  we are entitled and at certain points required to tell them, be it homophobia, racism, misogyny or any other prejudice of this kind...

I agree.

Actually - I wholeheartedly agree!

Phil
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28-08-2014, 12:49 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
On what basis do you say that her development is pre-rational - surely you cannot make that assertion based on one facet of her beliefs.

I would not yell at an 8 year old but she is no child. I would not yell and call her a narrowminded bigot - I would however point out why I find her beliefs reprehensible. And then, crucially provide evidence as to why they are irrational.

And just to clarify. People with full rational development can hold irrational beliefs - that is cognitive dissonance in one of its' truest senses.


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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28-08-2014, 01:06 PM
RE: Good Christian Love
(28-08-2014 12:49 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  On what basis do you say that her development is pre-rational - surely you cannot make that assertion based on one facet of her beliefs.

Yup - with respect to this situation it's reasonable to do so. A pre-rational thinker receives their morality from an external authority, whereas a rational thinker ethically discerns (works it out themselves).

So - when asked why they think it's "morally wrong", a rational thinker will explain cause and effect that leads back to a consequence of someone suffering, whereas a pre-rational thinker will simply say - it's wrong because the bible says so (which is exactly what the mother said).

Quote:I would not yell at an 8 year old but she is no child. I would not yell and call her a narrowminded bigot - I would however point out why I find her beliefs reprehensible. And then, crucially provide evidence as to why they are irrational.

OK well that sounds like it would be an appropriate and mindful response to the mother!


Quote:And just to clarify. People with full rational development can hold irrational beliefs - that is cognitive dissonance in one of its' truest senses.

I fully agree with that - I have noticed that especially with religious people that they can be at quite low (pre-rational) levels of moral development, even though they are capable of advanced rational thinking skills in other areas (e.g. advanced maths).

The key though here is looking at what sort of perspective comes to play in the actual situation, and as mentioned she's done the pre-rational thing of invoking the moral authority of the bible.

Phil
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