Poll: What do you think Christianity is primarily about?
This poll is closed.
Good News: Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins and raised for our justification 62.50% 5 62.50%
Good Advice: practical & moral guidance in order to live a good life here & now 37.50% 3 37.50%
Total 8 votes 100%
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Good News vs. Good Advice
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02-05-2012, 04:21 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2012 05:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
Hey Marky Mark,
Look at this. I was trying to read a little about Mithra.

"Today, having been born again be ... out of so many myriads. ... Born again for rebirth of that life-giving birth." (Mithra)

(John 3:3) Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (NASB)

Heh heh.

It was just another. Same ole, same ole.
http://www.egodeath.com/bensonmysteryrels.htm




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02-05-2012, 05:00 PM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(02-05-2012 04:09 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Re "My hypothesis is that the salvation paradigm of Paul evolved from the purification ritual needed to enter the Holy of Holies."


Hey, that's interesting. If you are serious, please tell me a bit more about this or provide a link. Thanks.

Know where prophets come from? Holy Spirit. Know where prophets also come from? Other prophets, like how Aaron got done up by Moses. Paul was a high muckity-muck among the Jews, so he was entitled to enter the Holy of Holies and be in the presence of YHWH, which is just a stone vault where the Holy Spirit hangs out when it ain't spinning up prophets, and he wuz thinking - why not take the Holy Spirit to the people? Cause in his day Judaism was fading with the threat of Rome and the stagnation imposed by the rulez-lawyers, and he wanted to make it glorious like it supposedly was back in the day, with Dave and them peeps...

He didn't have a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus; the same shit happened to him that happened to me. God shows up, says hey, fuckhead, I need a prophet, and you're it. And Paul went Sword! Sword! Sword of the Lord! (OK, that wasn't Paul, that was me in Albertson's one time Big Grin ) but he gave it a whirl and everybody's like, Dude. You ain't a prophet, you're a nutbag. Scripture says this that and the other thing, but it sure don't say, it's the truth until Paul shows up. It does say, however, that false prophets must get stoned... And they grabbed rocks so he screwed.

And he goes to god; Fuck, dude, I tried to tell them what's what... are you hardening their hearts against me or what?

And god goes; Are you talking to me, monkey?

And Paul goes, I need a sign!

And god goes,
[Image: 1christ-middle-finger1237063167-300x298.jpg]
which became the cross... but I digress. The point is, god makes prophets so god don't hafta do shit, it's up to the prophets to do the thinking. Easier than it sounds. Smile

Anyhoo, messianic rumors were flying around, cause of Rome, and Herod and stuff, so Paul's like...
[Image: light-bulb-idea-thumb10088600.jpg]
ding, ding!

I'll make one up, this "perfect Moses," and anyone who accepts him becomes prophet like Aaron. Yeah, that's it... and yeah, accepting Moses makes one pure, like dead in the flesh and stuff, so they can be in the presence of the Holy Spirit... wait a minute! That even covers that Garden of Eden fiasco that Zeke didn't do so good a job of fixing! Whoo-hoo!

But what is the motivation to accept this form of Judaism over the other? Sure it cuts down on the study time from fifteen years to fifteen seconds, but we need something else... wait a minute! Wasn't that nut Isaiah going on about hell or damnation, some kinda after death shit? What if Magic Moses can give like... eternal life! After death, sure, cause this life sucks for this lot in Judah, besides, there's all this shit from Egypt about Osiris and people's ba, and Anubis weighing the scales... nothing new for the locals, it gets more peeps rooting for YHWH, it's just win/win!


But being a prophet is of course being a nutbag, so he needed a crew to help him express himself to others - like that HoC jackass - and what happened was, one man's vision takes on a life of its own in a crowd of visionaries; Magic Moses became the Living Christ, and the scipt from the traveling troupe became the New Testament. I wuz there. Wink

(The cartoon version, all of which can be extrapolated from scripture, IMO)

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02-05-2012, 09:10 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2012 09:44 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(02-05-2012 05:00 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 04:09 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Re "My hypothesis is that the salvation paradigm of Paul evolved from the purification ritual needed to enter the Holy of Holies."


Hey, that's interesting. If you are serious, please tell me a bit more about this or provide a link. Thanks.


Know where prophets come from? Holy Spirit. Know where prophets also come from? Other prophets, like how Aaron got done up by Moses. Paul was a high muckity-muck among the Jews, so he was entitled to enter the Holy of Holies and be in the presence of YHWH, which is just a stone vault where the Holy Spirit hangs out when it ain't spinning up prophets, and he wuz thinking - why not take the Holy Spirit to the people? Cause in his day Judaism was fading with the threat of Rome and the stagnation imposed by the rulez-lawyers, and he wanted to make it glorious like it supposedly was back in the day, with Dave and them peeps...

He didn't have a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus; the same shit happened to him that happened to me. God shows up, says hey, fuckhead, I need a prophet, and you're it. And Paul went Sword! Sword! Sword of the Lord! (OK, that wasn't Paul, that was me in Albertson's one time Big Grin ) but he gave it a whirl and everybody's like, Dude. You ain't a prophet, you're a nutbag. Scripture says this that and the other thing, but it sure don't say, it's the truth until Paul shows up. It does say, however, that false prophets must get stoned... And they grabbed rocks so he screwed.

And he goes to god; Fuck, dude, I tried to tell them what's what... are you hardening their hearts against me or what?

And god goes; Are you talking to me, monkey?

And Paul goes, I need a sign!

And god goes,
[Image: 1christ-middle-finger1237063167-300x298.jpg]
which became the cross... but I digress. The point is, god makes prophets so god don't hafta do shit, it's up to the prophets to do the thinking. Easier than it sounds. Smile

Anyhoo, messianic rumors were flying around, cause of Rome, and Herod and stuff, so Paul's like...
[Image: light-bulb-idea-thumb10088600.jpg]
ding, ding!

I'll make one up, this "perfect Moses," and anyone who accepts him becomes prophet like Aaron. Yeah, that's it... and yeah, accepting Moses makes one pure, like dead in the flesh and stuff, so they can be in the presence of the Holy Spirit... wait a minute! That even covers that Garden of Eden fiasco that Zeke didn't do so good a job of fixing! Whoo-hoo!

But what is the motivation to accept this form of Judaism over the other? Sure it cuts down on the study time from fifteen years to fifteen seconds, but we need something else... wait a minute! Wasn't that nut Isaiah going on about hell or damnation, some kinda after death shit? What if Magic Moses can give like... eternal life! After death, sure, cause this life sucks for this lot in Judah, besides, there's all this shit from Egypt about Osiris and people's ba, and Anubis weighing the scales... nothing new for the locals, it gets more peeps rooting for YHWH, it's just win/win!


But being a prophet is of course being a nutbag, so he needed a crew to help him express himself to others - like that HoC jackass - and what happened was, one man's vision takes on a life of its own in a crowd of visionaries; Magic Moses became the Living Christ, and the scipt from the traveling troupe became the New Testament. I wuz there. Wink

(The cartoon version, all of which can be extrapolated from scripture, IMO)


Gee, you gotta lot of ideas there. I agree with most of them.

Only the High Priest was allowed to enter the "holy of Holies," right? So you think Paul was a High Priest? I've never heard that before. He may have been a Pharisee (as claimed in the book of Acts), or he may not have been Jewish at all (in which case he lied about himself, and so did the author of Acts), but could he have been the high priest? If he grew up in Tarsus, as he claimed, he couldn't have been a Saducee, as they were only associated with the Temple in Jerusalem. If he was a Saducee, and in fact was the chief Saducee, he must have lost his well paid prestigious job, which could just possibly account for his change of heart. Fill me in, I'm all ears.

I agree nearly everyone (particularly Jews) thought Paul was a nutbag. And, let's say it, he was!

I agree Paul made up "Christ." BTW, it is interesting to realise that Paul's "Christ" almost certainly wasn't actually Jeebus, the flesh and blood character who may or may not have actually once existed. Paul's Christ was a ghost, a spirit, a mystery. That's a fact very few Christians appreciate.

PS I like how you say "one man's vision took on a life of its own." I agree, yet I'm not sure how it happened. Here's my hypothesis. I think Marcion introduced Paul's letters to Rome, built some powerful churches based almost entirely on what Paul taught, and then in the late 2nd,3rd and 4th centuries the Catholics thought...gee...we'll have a piece of that. Then it all got stitched up together with Constantine.

What say you?
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02-05-2012, 09:33 PM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
Sanhedrin, that's the term I wuz looking for... if he wasn't allowed in, he knew somebody who was. He knew the legalities. Wink

Thinking about it right now, I'm thinking he was a Sadducee and his crew was Pharisee; but this stuff came to me from a "paranormal event." Afterwards, I found stuff in scripture to make me think my "prophetness" was showing. Big Grin

Now that I'm all atheist and stuff, I consider Paul may never even existed, or at least as "Paul." I get pretty rational for a psychopath. Wink

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02-05-2012, 09:53 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2012 09:55 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(02-05-2012 09:33 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Sanhedrin, that's the term I wuz looking for... if he wasn't allowed in, he knew somebody who was. He knew the legalities. Wink

Thinking about it right now, I'm thinking he was a Sadducee and his crew was Pharisee; but this stuff came to me from a "paranormal event." Afterwards, I found stuff in scripture to make me think my "prophetness" was showing. Big Grin

Now that I'm all atheist and stuff, I consider Paul may never even existed, or at least as "Paul." I get pretty rational for a psychopath. Wink



Ah yes....that's interesting...as a Pharisee he may have been a member of the Sanhedrin (the Jewish judges, members of which could be drawn from all sects)


My understanding of the "Holy of Holies" is that only the Chief Priest could ever enter it, and then only once a year. If that be so, Paul would have had to sneak in.

Just for interest, Titus entered it when he ransacked the Temple in 70 CE, expecting it to be full of gold, but it was just an empty room.

(02-05-2012 09:33 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Sanhedrin, that's the term I wuz looking for... if he wasn't allowed in, he knew somebody who was. He knew the legalities. Wink

Thinking about it right now, I'm thinking he was a Sadducee and his crew was Pharisee; but this stuff came to me from a "paranormal event." Afterwards, I found stuff in scripture to make me think my "prophetness" was showing. Big Grin

Now that I'm all atheist and stuff, I consider Paul may never even existed, or at least as "Paul." I get pretty rational for a psychopath. Wink



Yeah, some scholars (but not me) think that "Paul"was, in fact, Marcion.
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02-05-2012, 10:19 PM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(02-05-2012 09:10 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  PS I like how you say "one man's vision took on a life of its own." I agree, yet I'm not sure how it happened. Here's my hypothesis. I think Marcion introduced Paul's letters to Rome, built some powerful churches based almost entirely on what Paul taught, and then in the late 2nd,3rd and 4th centuries the Catholics thought...gee...we'll have a piece of that. Then it all got stitched up together with Constantine.

What say you?

Read that stuff where Gary bumped his head and he's all prophet now? And he thinks "prophecy" is gonna be his claim to fame? Big Grin

I might have some science going on, to you know, "validate being a prophet" and stuff - the hypothesis of using the heart for electromagnetic communication. Actually stole it from Heartmath, but they don't seem to have no prophets on staff. Big Grin

The way I figure it, we communicate emotional context in this manner. Know how some peeps just make you wanna kick it with 'em, and others, you just wanna stab in the eye? That's what's going on, electromagnetics. And this "visions from god" stuff gets real emotional, so if a crew is hanging around, spreading some gospel, and the central figure keeps going on about Jeebus (or Gwynnes for that matter. Stay well back from the HoC when he's obsessing, tell you whut. Big Grin), I'm thinking his waveform interfers with theirs, and before you know it, his peeps are "remembering" crazy shit - like, hey, didn't he walk on water? And raise the dead? And perform at Woodstock?

It ain't a real leap, 'specially for those who done hallucinogens, to see how this could be possible. Wink

Reality ain't "real," it is merely the most reinforced pattern. I've been in this place pecking at the keys for a coupla months, not doing drugs (beyond an occasional joint); it seems pretty real, predictable. But if I were to stick an ice pick in my eye and give it a try, it will be all brand new. And a coupla months after that, I will have no clear conception of what it was like not having a wooden handle coming outta the front of my skull. Big Grin

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03-05-2012, 01:55 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2012 02:11 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(02-05-2012 10:19 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 09:10 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  PS I like how you say "one man's vision took on a life of its own." I agree, yet I'm not sure how it happened. Here's my hypothesis. I think Marcion introduced Paul's letters to Rome, built some powerful churches based almost entirely on what Paul taught, and then in the late 2nd,3rd and 4th centuries the Catholics thought...gee...we'll have a piece of that. Then it all got stitched up together with Constantine.

What say you?

Read that stuff where Gary bumped his head and he's all prophet now? And he thinks "prophecy" is gonna be his claim to fame? Big Grin

I might have some science going on, to you know, "validate being a prophet" and stuff - the hypothesis of using the heart for electromagnetic communication. Actually stole it from Heartmath, but they don't seem to have no prophets on staff. Big Grin

The way I figure it, we communicate emotional context in this manner. Know how some peeps just make you wanna kick it with 'em, and others, you just wanna stab in the eye? That's what's going on, electromagnetics. And this "visions from god" stuff gets real emotional, so if a crew is hanging around, spreading some gospel, and the central figure keeps going on about Jeebus (or Gwynnes for that matter. Stay well back from the HoC when he's obsessing, tell you whut. Big Grin), I'm thinking his waveform interfers with theirs, and before you know it, his peeps are "remembering" crazy shit - like, hey, didn't he walk on water? And raise the dead? And perform at Woodstock?

It ain't a real leap, 'specially for those who done hallucinogens, to see how this could be possible. Wink

Reality ain't "real," it is merely the most reinforced pattern. I've been in this place pecking at the keys for a coupla months, not doing drugs (beyond an occasional joint); it seems pretty real, predictable. But if I were to stick an ice pick in my eye and give it a try, it will be all brand new. And a coupla months after that, I will have no clear conception of what it was like not having a wooden handle coming outta the front of my skull. Big Grin
Ah, ok HOC, I get where you are coming from.
(02-05-2012 03:02 PM)kim Wrote:  
(01-05-2012 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Great point about the Romans. I believe they got into bed with the Saducees (associated with the High Priest) in Jesus' day. This may have been the main reason Jesus hated the Saducees' guts. It was why the Saducees worked with the Roman establishment to knock Jesus off.

I also believe it is highly likely Paul (the real founder of Christianity) was a Roman government agent.
Great rundown on Mithras! Bowing He's dreamy. Angel

____________

I too, think Paul was a Roman agent. Acts says he was a Roman citizen and there are some pretty telling things that point to it - including his own denials. He may have been one of Rome's arbitrageurs, keeping profits risk free at zero cost; that, and keeping shit controlled and running smoothly, were what the Romans were all about wherever they set up shop.

Paul was a user, but I can't really speculate about his sexual predilections. However, I do think Paul was half Roman and half Jew... a lot of reason to hate yourself, at the time. And since I don't think a sociopath has guilt, I think his main frustrations came from having to work really hard to get what he wanted, all the while feeling he was entitled.

Paul was most certainly a slick, sociopathic businessman, bent on pretty much whatever would get him further along. Notice how he just kind of shows up just when things are moving along? Not like he was the first to get into the Jesus mystique, right? He starts out persecuting the shit out of them and suddenly, he's hanging with them? He hitched his wagon to the Jesus train and had a pretty good ride, considering the book deal and subsequent fame he got out of it.


Nothing good can come from a middle manager asshole using a leveraged buyout to fund his own side project. It makes for years of market manipulation, before it's absorbed and dispatched. Even then, the aftereffects linger.
Undecided

(02-05-2012 02:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's now a reportable disease. They already know. Merck will be working on a vaccine. Tongue

You do know... Comic Sans is a genetic mutant created by Microsoft, right? Shocking It can never be killed.

It's a fact.
Yes
Hey Kim, that's really cool that you think Paul was an agent. This is a pet topic of mine, and maybe I harp on about it a bit too much, but if it is true, it really is big news worth discussing. It means Christianity is a sham, a manufactured product. Most atheists already know that, but here are the nuts and bolts of it. All those billions of people over the centuries have been praying to a toy mascot. All the wars, the hatred, the lies, and the mental anguish could have been avoided with some good quality detective work.

Surely, somehow, someone who understands the history needs to communicate it to the world. This is not the sort of information that that should be hidden away and whispered between nerdy academics who have spent too many years pondering over ancient history. How are we going to get it out there? Bucky? Anyone else?
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03-05-2012, 05:30 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2012 06:50 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(03-05-2012 01:55 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Surely, somehow, someone who understands the history needs to communicate it to the world. This is not the sort of information that that should be hidden away and whispered between nerdy academics who have spent too many years pondering over ancient history. How are we going to get it out there? Bucky? Anyone else?


Exactly.

That's why I think a headline grabbing book, such as "Paulianity ... or why the religion Christians think they practice really isn't, and actually has nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth", could be as big a blockbuster as Dan Brown's books, and this one would be reality.

Well researched, well documented, well written, starting with an explanation of an explosive topic, such as the absence of "salvation" in Mark, then going back briefly to an examination of the origins of Yahweh, placed into it's historical context, and the real "non sin" basis of the Garden Myth, (chaos), then going back to a well ordered outline of the main steps of the development, (along with the obvious debunking), of where "original sin" came from, (and why), where the ideas of "salvation", "word of god", "son of god", etc etc all came from, all in one place, (for people who don't have the time to do the research, or know how to go about it) could be HUGE. At the very least it would spark an intense reaction from the fundies and academics, attempting to refute it, (which..once the cat is out of the bag, would be impossible). I was serious, when I suggested we collabarate.

The only reason the "man in the pew" remains there is ignorance. It's also one of Bart Ehrman's main contentions, (that if the man in the pew actually knew what was being taught in the mainline academic centers of Archaelology, and scriptural exegesis, (or even in the "liberal" seminaries .. Harvard, Princeton, maybe Union, and the Episcopal one in the East Coast of the US), they would not believe what they were hearing.

The book could also include a forword or afterword on how science has now refuted "Natural Law", and "First Cause" just to bug the fundie "Thomistic/Aristotelian" arguments "a priori".

The astounding ignorance displayed by "your" Cardinal Pell, (Sydney) in the recent debate there, ( http://www.atheistmedia.com/ ), (see the new Krauss / Dawkins video), is a perfect example of why the ole Buckminster is so very privileged to have seen the crap from the inside, (having met more than my share of these idiots "in red and purple", due to family connections). When I see the harm that was done, (re my "other project" ....as you know), I am SO lucky that it never touched me. But if they are all as easy to deal with, intellectually, as Pell is, they might just as well invite 3rd graders to the debates.


Dodgy

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03-05-2012, 07:52 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(03-05-2012 01:55 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Ah, ok HOC, I get where you are coming from.

...as he backs away slowly, making no sudden moves...



As far as Christians go, it doesn't matter if it were shown that Jesus never existed or it was a Pauline conspiracy. Lookit LDS and Scientology, it's not even possible that that stuff ain't utter crap. Doesn't stop those cults from roping 'em in.

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03-05-2012, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2012 04:06 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(03-05-2012 07:52 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 01:55 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Ah, ok HOC, I get where you are coming from.

...as he backs away slowly, making no sudden moves...



As far as Christians go, it doesn't matter if it were shown that Jesus never existed or it was a Pauline conspiracy. Lookit LDS and Scientology, it's not even possible that that stuff ain't utter crap. Doesn't stop those cults from roping 'em in.
True...there will always be gullible, not very bright people.

I want to communicate with the average, moderately intelligent Christian. And those sending their kids to "good" Christian schools. These people are out there, passively accepting the dogma, not knowing any better. If it was harmless dogma it wouldn't be such an issue...but its not harmless. Christianity still has a powerful grip on society, particularly in the USA. Children everywhere are still being brainwashed.
(03-05-2012 05:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 01:55 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Surely, somehow, someone who understands the history needs to communicate it to the world. This is not the sort of information that that should be hidden away and whispered between nerdy academics who have spent too many years pondering over ancient history. How are we going to get it out there? Bucky? Anyone else?


Exactly.

That's why I think a headline grabbing book, such as "Paulianity ... or why the religion Christians think they practice really isn't, and actually has nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth", could be as big a blockbuster as Dan Brown's books, and this one would be reality.

Well researched, well documented, well written, starting with an explanation of an explosive topic, such as the absence of "salvation" in Mark, then going back briefly to an examination of the origins of Yahweh, placed into it's historical context, and the real "non sin" basis of the Garden Myth, (chaos), then going back to a well ordered outline of the main steps of the development, (along with the obvious debunking), of where "original sin" came from, (and why), where the ideas of "salvation", "word of god", "son of god", etc etc all came from, all in one place, (for people who don't have the time to do the research, or know how to go about it) could be HUGE. At the very least it would spark an intense reaction from the fundies and academics, attempting to refute it, (which..once the cat is out of the bag, would be impossible). I was serious, when I suggested we collabarate.

The only reason the "man in the pew" remains there is ignorance. It's also one of Bart Ehrman's main contentions, (that if the man in the pew actually knew what was being taught in the mainline academic centers of Archaelology, and scriptural exegesis, (or even in the "liberal" seminaries .. Harvard, Princeton, maybe Union, and the Episcopal one in the East Coast of the US), they would not believe what they were hearing.

The book could also include a forword or afterword on how science has now refuted "Natural Law", and "First Cause" just to bug the fundie "Thomistic/Aristotelian" arguments "a priori".

The astounding ignorance displayed by "your" Cardinal Pell, (Sydney) in the recent debate there, ( http://www.atheistmedia.com/ ), (see the new Krauss / Dawkins video), is a perfect example of why the ole Buckminster is so very privileged to have seen the crap from the inside, (having met more than my share of these idiots "in red and purple", due to family connections). When I see the harm that was done, (re my "other project" ....as you know), I am SO lucky that it never touched me. But if they are all as easy to deal with, intellectually, as Pell is, they might just as well invite 3rd graders to the debates.


Dodgy
Yes mate. Publicity is the thing. That's the hard bit. I think we gotta use the internet and youtube, podcasts, and there's a whole lot of work involved. I'm beavering away, but its slow.
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