Poll: What do you think Christianity is primarily about?
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Good News: Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins and raised for our justification 62.50% 5 62.50%
Good Advice: practical & moral guidance in order to live a good life here & now 37.50% 3 37.50%
Total 8 votes 100%
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Good News vs. Good Advice
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28-04-2012, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2012 01:48 AM by ALovelyChickenMan.)
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
I think it's meant to be about good news because some Christians admit that morality isn't exclusive to Christians.

Yet the saddening thing is that it isn't good news at all.

How is it a good thing to think you were born a bad person and will remain a bad person forever because you're always sinning?

The news you claim to be good is far from liberating. It's almost dangerous, especially from a young age.

Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own understanding!
Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.


Enlightenment is liberating.
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28-04-2012, 03:47 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
I don't want to think of anyone's torture and death as 'good news' and 'good advice' would have to be current, which the babble clearly is not.

Religion is primarily a devisive control mechanism invented by evil atheists to control stupid people.

(we're the nice atheists trying to shatter the illusion) Angel

"While religions tell us next to nothing useful or true about the universe, they do tell us an enormous amount - perhaps an embarrassing amount - about ourselves, about what we value, fear and lust after." Iain M Banks
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28-04-2012, 03:49 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(27-04-2012 02:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-04-2012 01:42 PM)THEOtalk Wrote:  I think Christianity is centered around God's covenant with us. .... What is "God's covenant with us ?

Please forgive my presumptuous editing of your text.

The "covenant" is interesting. The actual development of that concept goes back to the cult of the "God of the Armies", whom you may know better as the "Lord of Hosts", or maybe even better as "Yahweh Sabaoth". The "Covenant" was originally, the agreement that the Hebrew people would stick to worshiping the one god, (among the many they believed in, and were available) to obtain his favor, (and there is some evidence they also worshiped Ashura, (his wife), and thus obtain his help in winning their battles.

Today, it has morphed into the salvation paradigm, which most Christians couldn't even give you a definition for. If 50 % of Lutherans don't know who Martin Luther was, and 50% of Catholics can't tell us what "transubstantiation" actullay means, is there any reason at all to expect that an accurate definition of the "salvation paradigm" be given, or an understanding of what a "covenant" either meant then, or after 3500 years of development, means today.






So I guess I didn't really answer the question did I ?
The answer to the question, "is it good news or good advice" ?
It's neither. It's an historical anachronism, fast dropping out of the collective consciousness.
There is no "Christianity". There are 33,000 sects of it. That alone says a lot.
The human ideas, that a.) morality springs from religion, is false, (see Anthro 101),
and b.) there is something "flawed" that needs to get "fixed", (by a "savior"), is no longer a supportable position.
And actually if you read Martin Buber, (Jewish historian/philosopher .... "Good and Evil"), the editors of Genesis were not talking about "sin", they were talking about "chaos", see also the ancient myth of "Marduk Slaying the Dragon of Chaos", so the entire enterprise is misguided, in that it probably misunderstood the intent of the writers, with a simplistic overlay.
There are lots of things that need to be improved, and worked on, but "salvation" is no longer seen as the cure.
The origins, of what religions call "sin" have been exposed, (by science), and require no "salvation".
wow that is a really good video. I have always thought that the best way to disprove God was not the scientific approach but a history approach as well as a human thought/social understanding approach.

I highly suggest watching that video, then watch part2, part 2 is really good as well.

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28-04-2012, 06:01 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(27-04-2012 02:46 PM)THEOtalk Wrote:  
(27-04-2012 02:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
But what about modern cosmology that points to a definite beginning ("Big Bang") and the first cause having to be immaterial? Even Stephen Hawking alluded to this in A Brief History of Time (page 210).

What about the blatant teleology in the world, verified both by human experience and reason? Ontology is dependent on teleology otherwise we couldn't detect anything definitive or anything objective (like "science")...

And what about the first century world in which the Church was born into and its completely counter view of religion, morality, life, death, salvation, etc??? Everything that the New Testament says about who Jesus Christ was and the universal implication of His death and subsequent resurrection was absolutely folly to the ancient world just like it is to the modern world (1 Cor 1:18-31).


I mean the New Testament books say things like "that which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--the life was made manifest and we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life..." - 1 John 1:1-2

Or "For we do not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty..." - 2 Peter 1:16-21


I mean the Bible itself is testifying to its mult-eyewitness account and prima facie does not come across as something that was manipulated and forged by a bunch of monks in a cave somewhere, which is VERIFIABLE my latter first century historians, both secular and Christian.
I will admit right now that I have not read Hawking's book. I do however listen to a ton of astrophysics lectures and am familiar with Hawking. He thinks no such thing which leads me to believe that you haven't read the book either. Your reference is probably off some theist site that's either quote mining or taking it out of context.

Hawking as well as the majority of astronomers think that space and time DID NOT have a beginning. They often use this when confronted with the creator subject. If the Universe did not have a beginning, what does that say about a creator? In fact, the leading theory in astronomy is the Multiverse theory. An infinite "sea" of other universes all with their own set of physics.

By the way, you never answered me...

Where do you get your idea that there is a "true" Christianity?

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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28-04-2012, 06:19 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(28-04-2012 06:01 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(27-04-2012 02:46 PM)THEOtalk Wrote:  But what about modern cosmology that points to a definite beginning ("Big Bang") and the first cause having to be immaterial? Even Stephen Hawking alluded to this in A Brief History of Time (page 210).

What about the blatant teleology in the world, verified both by human experience and reason? Ontology is dependent on teleology otherwise we couldn't detect anything definitive or anything objective (like "science")...

And what about the first century world in which the Church was born into and its completely counter view of religion, morality, life, death, salvation, etc??? Everything that the New Testament says about who Jesus Christ was and the universal implication of His death and subsequent resurrection was absolutely folly to the ancient world just like it is to the modern world (1 Cor 1:18-31).


I mean the New Testament books say things like "that which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--the life was made manifest and we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life..." - 1 John 1:1-2

Or "For we do not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty..." - 2 Peter 1:16-21


I mean the Bible itself is testifying to its mult-eyewitness account and prima facie does not come across as something that was manipulated and forged by a bunch of monks in a cave somewhere, which is VERIFIABLE my latter first century historians, both secular and Christian.
I will admit right now that I have not read Hawking's book. I do however listen to a ton of astrophysics lectures and am familiar with Hawking. He thinks no such thing which leads me to believe that you haven't read the book either. Your reference is probably off some theist site that's either quote mining or taking it out of context.

Hawking as well as the majority of astronomers think that space and time DID NOT have a beginning. They often use this when confronted with the creator subject. If the Universe did not have a beginning, what does that say about a creator? In fact, the leading theory in astronomy is the Multiverse theory. An infinite "sea" of other universes all with their own set of physics.

By the way, you never answered me...

Where do you get your idea that there is a "true" Christianity?


Stephen Hawking : The Grand Design, 2010, Chapter 8, p. 172

"We claim however, that it is possible to answer these questions purely within the realm of science, and without invoking any divine beings."

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-04-2012, 06:43 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(28-04-2012 06:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Stephen Hawking : The Grand Design, 2010, Chapter 8, p. 172

"We claim however, that it is possible to answer these questions purely within the realm of science, and without invoking any divine beings."

Buck,
Yeah, well, maybe. But after yesterday, you can just kiss becoming a member of Terse But Deadly good-bye.

The angry gods require sacrifice. Now get outside and slay them a goat. Cadet in Terse But Deadly
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28-04-2012, 09:13 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(28-04-2012 06:43 AM)San Onofre Surfer Wrote:  Buck,
Yeah, well, maybe. But after yesterday, you can just kiss becoming a member of Terse But Deadly good-bye.



Weeping

I've contacted '12 Steps for Windbags'. It ain't gonna be easy.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-04-2012, 10:49 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(28-04-2012 06:01 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Where do you get your idea that there is a "true" Christianity?
Excellent question. I'd love to hear the answer.
There are approximately 38000 Christian denominations in the world. http://christianity.about.com/od/denomin...ntoday.htm

After you give your definition of "true" Christianity, it will be interesting to see how many of those various groups would fully agree with you.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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28-04-2012, 10:49 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
(27-04-2012 02:21 PM)Thomas Wrote:  What does Zeus mean to you? Good news or good advice?
What is your relationship to Apollo or Ra?
That's what I'm asking.
Ya there's a little bit of a difference between Jesus and Zeus or between Jesus and Apollo or between Jesus and Ra. For starters, there no evidence that Zeus, Apollo, or Ra actually historically existed and were real people. Counter that with the copious amount of evidence for the existence and life of Jesus and Nazareth and the pagan gods fall to the wayside (Secular: Josephus, Seutonius, Pliny the Younger, Tacticus; Christian: Clement of Rome, Ignatious, Ireneaus, Polycarp, John the elder at Ephesus)

In response to your weighty assertion that "If your god existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation", I'm not sure I follow your logic. Surely you're not saying that just because you don't believe in something is must not exist. There are some who don't believe in capital punishment, yet it exists. There are some who don't believe in the institution of marriage, yet it exists. There are some who don't believe in using violence to proliferate their religious convictions yet there are those who still do it.

As a Christian I would actually say that you're assertion actually proves the existence of "my" God though He is yours as well. That's because His written revelation says that mankind naturally "suppresses the truth about God" although God has made plain to them His existence and eternal power through the created order. People naturally hate God and want nothing to do with him yet mankind can't seem to shake God, no matter how hard secularists try to extinguish Him.

I actually flip this question around to you and say that if you're worldview was correct, we wouldn't be having this conversion! If materialism was all there was, then there wouldn't even be the idea of the immaterial because we would have nothing to contrast it with--all we would or could know was the material!


So while the theistic worldview has evidence and reason for its presuppositions and the existence of atheists, the materialist worldview cannot come up with any intelligent presuppositions or give credence to why the vast majority of the human population are religious in nature and worship some deity.
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28-04-2012, 10:53 AM
RE: Good News vs. Good Advice
Quote: (Secular: Josephus, Seutonius, Pliny the Younger, Tacticus; Christian:
Clement of Rome, Ignatious, Ireneaus, Polycarp, John the elder at
Ephesus)
Please provide sources that were contemporary eyewitnesses of Jesus.

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