Good Old Subservient Women
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15-10-2011, 07:17 PM
Good Old Subservient Women
So I was talking to my lady today and she mentioned that her little sister had had an argument with her dad at church the last weekend. I inquired as to what the argument may have been about being inquisitive in nature. She said that her dad had been complaining that they couldn't have their bible study group meetings since the last leader had stepped down, apparently because none of the men wanted to lead. Her sister asked the logical question for an inquiring mind... why did no one ask one of the women to lead? They all wanted to.

He replied "Because women can't lead, it says so in the bible." And thus began the argument. She had a couple good replies but her knowledge of the bible and it's contents was slightly lower than his (which is to say... low.) and she walked away the loser with his final words being "if you don't like what it says in the bible, well to bad for you".

I had to fight the urge to go upstairs ( I live with them so help me god) and knock this guys teeth out. For numerous reasons obvious to you guys and gals I'm sure, and others you are not yet aware of. You see some back story is a coming your way.

He has nothing but daughters. Seriously all chicks. Four of them (all seriously messed up too minus mine and the youngest who is sure to be. Mine slipped by somehow being the oldest, and not paying much attention to the antics of Mennonite daddy and mommy. Lucky for me.) So for someone to be so completely misogynistic and have so many daughters.,... doesn't that make him a bad dad then? He doesn't have their best interests at heart with that attitude, not if he sees them the way I always knew he did.. as slaves. He holds them back whenever he can, and then pretends he wasn't doing it. (He's a known liar and two face, but that's another story)

My wife got mad a year or so ago when I pointed out that her dad had made a decision for her that seemed to be for her benefit, but was clearly a ruse to hold her back. She hadn't noticed, then I showed her why. She didn't believe me for a while until having numerous other conversations with her dad that showed her otherwise. It was a decision that literally screwed up her life. He has done similar things to all of his girls.

I guess my question is this. How can a man who has daughters be misogynistic and live with himself. How can someone think that what they are doing is right even when they are coated in blood and their ears ring with screaming? How do they come to the conclusion that they are good? These are the morals the bible teaches us?

I think this ties into my other thread about the mental gymnastics I believe Christian Psychotherapists have to go through just to get through life without the thin wall of sanity cracking. Must all religious people live with two brains active at all times? Like when they say that all gays should be killed, but then they go to work on the sabbath without seeing anything bad about it?

Does anyone else find it ironic that a religion that touts itself as peaceful, loving, tolerant, and the word of god, is also one of the most opposite things ever invented?

P.S. This guy makes me sick to my stomach

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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15-10-2011, 10:08 PM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
(15-10-2011 07:17 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Does anyone else find it ironic that a religion that touts itself as peaceful, loving, tolerant, and the word of god, is also one of the most opposite things ever invented?

I suppose I do. However, by this point, any vestige of me that subconsciously associated religion with 'goodness' has died. In fact, it's quiet the opposite. I have to regularly remind myself that most religious persons don't know whats in their holy books and are just decent people with a couple of cracked beliefs.

Of course, when someone shows that they do know, and don't try to apologize for it, but instead accept the wickedness in the bible, I can get pretty angry, especially if they try to pass it off as goodness. Like with S.T. Ranger. Or William Fucking Craig.
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16-10-2011, 02:21 AM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
(15-10-2011 07:17 PM)lucradis Wrote:  
I guess my question is this. How can a man who has daughters be misogynistic and live with himself. How can someone think that what they are doing is right even when they are coated in blood and their ears ring with screaming? How do they come to the conclusion that they are good? These are the morals the bible teaches us?

Cognitive dissonance. I see it everywhere. It's pervasive.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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16-10-2011, 02:59 AM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
Gotta say this kind of attitude is one of the things that annoys me most about religion. They spend half their lives being completely intolerant and speaking down to anyone with different beliefs/opinions and the other half moaning that people aren't tolerant enough of them and people don't tolerate their beliefs/opinions enough.

Gotta agree with you about the misogyny as well. I really hate the homophobia/misogyny in the Bible and I'm a straight guy so I can't begin to imagine how much it must hurt females/gays. I also agree that anyone who has four daughters and teaches them that their place is below men, being led and ordered as opposed to thinking for themselves, is either sick in the head or educationally sub-normal. It could hold them back in so many ways in life. It could prevent them pursuing a career because they think it's not a woman's place to do so. It could make them afraid to air their opinions because they think their unworthy. I don't even wanna think about how bad the situation could get if they ended up with an abusive partner, how could they ever work up the courage to finish it and get on with their life if they believe that men are superior and they are worthless, especially if they believe that it was God who made them inferior.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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16-10-2011, 06:56 AM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
I found myself getting pissed off reading that. I hate people who try and force people to do what they want especially when they do it in a sneaky way like he does. It's cowardly.

The thing that annoys me the most about some religious people is when they force their beliefs on another. And when they use their religion as justification for their discrimination of others.

My guess is he enjoys the power he has over these women. I hope that his daughters do what they feel is right for themselfs and not what their father is manipulating them to do.

Behold the power of the force!
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16-10-2011, 08:15 AM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
As a black man, I am always in favour of emancipation. It doesn't matter if it's for women, blacks, gays or purple people, I'm for it.

That being said, I'm also a Darwinist. Because of that, I have to recognise, which is vastly different than saying I have to like, the fact that cultures evolve. I also have to recognise that cultures are a complex web of individual and self-supporting beliefs. I also have to recognise that the content of those beliefs is irrelevant from an evolutionary perspective. The only thing that matters is that the complex functions.

It's a pervasive idea, and a rank misinterpretation of Darwinism, that there's some right way to do things. We just have to evolve until we find it and those that haven't found it are less evolved. But that's not true. There is no ideal that we're all striving for. There is only what makes our cultures function. It's this misunderstanding of Darwin, this notion of the Shakespearian paragon, that makes it difficult for us to see other cultures as just that. Other cultures. They're neither better nor worse than us. They're just different. We don't have to make them us because we aren't the paragon. We're just us. We need to abandon this idea that everyone has to be one way because the evidence tells us the opposite.

So when I see something like the Mennonite community, I know that as much as I am for the emancipation of women, their culture is not my culture. Women were not always emancipated in my culture. My mother is a baby boomer and she was born without equality. The emancipation of women is a relatively new occurrence in my culture and, many would argue, an ongoing process.

One of the most important parts of emancipation is the desire for it. Look at universal suffrage, civil rights, women's lib, anti-apartheid, gay rights, gay marriage; all of these movements share some key points. All of those movements were founded by marginalised groups within a larger culture. They had less rights than others (sometimes the majority and sometimes a minority; as in South Africa). But nothing changed until they hit a point where they said to themselves that the situation was so intolerable that they could stand it no longer. Then they fought. The fight for emancipation is tough because changing systems is difficult (in systems theory we talk about disarticulation and lines of tendential force, but basically, the more connections a node has within the system, the harder it is to pull it out).

When we look at the Mennonite community, from our cultural vantage point, they're backwards. Of course women should have rights, we say. Let her lead the Bible group, ya fuckin barbarian! But we only think that way because our culture is different. A hundred years ago, we wouldn't have batted an eye. But the Mennonite community is a complex. The dad who keeps his daughters down is totally at peace with himself because that's what works in his culture. Patriarchy (which still very much exists in our culture) plays a larger role. What I don't see in the Mennonite community is a women's movement that seeks emancipation. Perhaps Lucradis' sister-in-law represents the beginning of that movement. The first woman to say, "Well why the fuck can't I?" If that is the case, and there is a new movement, or an existing one that I'm not aware of, they have my full support. Just as I bought copies of Sun City during apartheid to support blacks in South Africa, I will support that movement. But I believe that it's dangerous to enter another culture and tell them what they must do. All cultures are evolving. They need to do so on their own.

Every culture marginalises some portion of its populace. That's just the nature of a hierarchical system that is exclusive, that is to say, it is comprised of competing special interest groups. One or more of those groups will find themselves the odd man out. That's a universal truth. But no group remains marginalised forever. Eventually, they gain power or they just get to the point where the situation becomes intolerable and they revolt. As Kim Jong-il once said, "it's inebidibaw."

When I see things like women wearing pants, or stores opening on Sunday, or people going to work on the Sabbath, or people admitting that gays have the right to marry, or women wearing burquas, or people advocating the teaching of Creationism, or the rescinding of don’t ask don’t tell, or the US government using rendition and torture, all I see is the evolutionary process at work. The sky’s blue, water’s wet, cultures change.

It's easy to look at the Mennonites and call them backwards because we have a belief that's "better" than theirs, but to quote the almighty Jeebus, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." There are beliefs within the Mennonite community that are way "better" than the beliefs in our culture. Specifically, I speak of conscientious objection. Mennonites believe that, "Jesus enjoins his followers to love their enemies and to refuse violence." So Mennonites refuse to fight wars. So as backwards as they might be about women's rights, we are backwards about butchering our enemies. This is the understanding that one reaches when one follows Darwin. All cultures are backwards. Just as all cultures are good. It's all relative. And all cultures are evolving. If the women want it (and they will, because as psychologist Dr. Rollo May says, "No one can stand the perpetually numbing feeling of their own powerlessness.") then they will demand it. And I will stand beside them.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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16-10-2011, 09:14 AM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
I have several issues with your posting Matt although I recognize it as your opinion and thus I cannot say it is wrong.
My problem stems in that by calling something a culture it is making it untouchable. Something to preserve and look at through a window. It may be the culture(religion) but does that make it ok? Should human rights not be prevailing in every social structure? Or should we simply because someone's culture says its ok, sit idly by while a group of people sacrifice children? Before you say "well those are two totally different things" they aren't. The action is different but the principal is the same. I agree that if a fully grown woman wants to be treated as a second class citizen that's their beef, but kids? I call it child abuse.
But my question was more tuned to the psychology of it anyways. While you did answer that I think you missed an important aspect. It's not only that he feels content because he is following the rules of his religion I can assure you. Most of the rules they follow aren't even in the bible and a bunch of the ones that are they blissfully ignore. So if ignoring rules for the comfort of your chosen lifestyle is optional that he is choosing to devalue women. His own kids. I know he has a thing for control from personal experience so I know that is a part of it, but what I can't get is how he can go to sleep at night after spending part of his day thinking his daughters were less than any man.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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16-10-2011, 10:16 AM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
You touched on something very important there Lucradis.

These people never follow ALL the rules, just some. And what do we notice about which rules they follow? The only follow the rules that benefit/don't detriment themselves. Some men are happy to play up the whole 'male supremacy' thing because it benefits them. The bible says that they shouldn't shave, do they follow that? No. Because they don't want a beard. The bible says they shouldn't work on a Sabbath, do they follow that? No. Because it's inconvenient.

These people are not preserving their culture. They are manipulating it to serve their own ends whether they are aware of it or not.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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16-10-2011, 10:56 AM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
Cultures can sit and spin. I don't give a fuck about cultures. It's the people in them I care about. This isn't a matter of voting republican or democrat, or being a cat person or a dog person. I'm not going to go to China or Japan and demand they stop using those primitive chopsticks and eat with real utensils.

But human rights are non-negotiable. The only people you can force human rights on are the controlling bigots, who will no longer have obedient lessers to control. You can't force rights on the oppressed, after all, if they like being subservient to a man they can always keep doing it. After all, that's their right. But letting people do what they want, if they so choose, is important for those who don't like the culture their in. Cultures should not be allowed to force the people who just happened to have been born in them to conform.

I hate this morally relativistic bullshit. I don't care if your entire culture is based around Spongebob Squarepants, to the point where large sums of government money are spent to create underwater domes to support air-breathing life, just like Sandys Tree-dome. Whatever, that's the politicians they voted in. But the second they start forcing people to watch the show every day, or force them to live in the tree-domes they've made, you've crossed the line. Some things are not relative. Human rights are absolute.
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16-10-2011, 11:59 AM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
The guy is flat out wrong. He sounds like he is stuck in his ways. A mindset that I would call old fashioned I guess. If I read correctly he is Mennonite? If so that explains it all as they seem to be extremely conservative in their beliefs. It seems with that mindset women are only capable of so much and must stay within those lines. They do not have a substantially large amount of followers which says a lot about them and how many people that really want to follow those beliefs.

I agree with everything that is said and it seems hypocritical of him. Just the kind of person I would love to challenge his beliefs and put him in his place. While it may seem satisfying it never seems to do any good with people like that. There so set in there ways there is no way of changing them. Even more sad is they can only learn so much because they won't allow themselves to learn any more because of the strict beliefs.

That said as I have gotten older and more bothered by some people and there beliefs. I have realized most people put up a shell to prevent themselves seeing what is right in front of them. So what can we do about it. I don't want to bust out a bible verse but I remind myself "judge not lest ye be judged". That statement rings true even if you believe it's a fairy tale. I have spent enough time worrying about others and how they are. And came to realize the best you can do is show them what you see and if they deny it then move on and better yourself while there world potentially falls apart. Of course your situation Lucradis seems a little more sensitive being he's your father in law and lives in the same building. Just don't look at people like that as a proper representative of how a "Christian" should act. No one is perfect so some may be a great example while others are a good reason why people hate religion. He clearly is not the good example.
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