Good Old Subservient Women
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17-10-2011, 06:11 PM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
I still think you're missing my point. Also I am not indoctrinating my child into anything other than the mandatory life. That is unavoidable. I will never tell her how she can live unless she is under my roof and it is something that would endanger her life. That doesn't matter though it's currently besides the point.

I believe whole heatedly that wanting the best possible life for ones children is in us from birth. The only thing that changes is what "the best thing" would be. I agree that culture can have an effect so long as there are no outside influences but as I stated before these men are surrounded by outside influence. They are aware of what the positive and negative are. It's not a lack of understanding it is literally a personal choice. There is no ostracizing from within the community as a matter of fact there are lots of dads within the community that allow their daughters to live normal lives. So the ones that don't are choosing not to. Knowing that there will be negative repercussions.
It's not preservation of culture or religious beliefs anymore it falls into abuse of religious views.

If it isn't universally true that all parents are born with the knowledge that they want the best for their kids then everything I've said is mute. But I really don't think that's the case.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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17-10-2011, 06:28 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2011 06:41 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
(17-10-2011 03:46 PM)Ghost Wrote:  There's a great line, in a fantastic scene, in a wonderful movie called Cry Freedom in which Denzel Washington as Steve Biko talks about a simple fact: the oppressed are aware of the fact that they are oppressed.

Great clip! Never even heard of this movie before. Off to find it on Netflix.

(16-10-2011 07:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(16-10-2011 07:16 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I don't get how when they know that it's obviously better psychologically for the daughter to become strong and independent, intelligent, and successful, they could sentence them to the life of basically a slave.

While cognitive dissonance can almost certainly explain his behavior, ...

(17-10-2011 03:46 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I challenge you on the cognitive dissonance front. I don't think he has two ideas fighting for dominance. I think he just has one; women have their place.

Just to be clear here, Matt, you are not challenging my conclusion. You are challenging Lucradis' premise. He knows and lives with the man so I accept his premise.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-10-2011, 12:04 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2011 12:07 PM by Ghost.)
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
Hey, Lucradis.

I agree. It's beside the point. I'll just log my objection to the notion of "the mandatory life".

Quote:I believe whole heatedly that wanting the best possible life for ones children is in us from birth. The only thing that changes is what "the best thing" would be.

I agree 100%.

Quote:I agree that culture can have an effect so long as there are no outside influences but as I stated before these men are surrounded by outside influence.

This is where it gets wonky.

How much, black, Chinese, Persian, Scandinavian, Spanish, Inca and Mohawk blood do you have in your family? You and I are surrounded by different "races" but we don't necessarily adopt their traits (gene flow). There's no reason we can't, but it's a process and there is no reason that it has to happen. Same with culture. The Mennonites and all of us are surrounded by other cultures, but we don't necessarily adopt their traits (meme flow).

The point is that things CAN flow between cultures but there's no mechanism that FORCES them to flow.

Quote:They are aware of what the positive and negative are. It's not a lack of understanding it is literally a personal choice.

It is, in effect, a personal choice. But it's a personal choice that is made in context.

You mention the positives and negatives as if they are objective. If they are, then you're right. They're ignoring objective truths. But if they're culturally relative (which I argue they are) then what you see as a positive, they might see as a negative; thus, their refusal to adopt it is a choice to stick with something positive, not a choice to reject something positive.

Quote:There is no ostracizing from within the community as a matter of fact there are lots of dads within the community that allow their daughters to live normal lives. So the ones that don't are choosing not to. Knowing that there will be negative repercussions.

Negative repercussions as you see them. I agree with you, but I recognise that I have a cultural bias.

If there are dads that allow their daughters to do whatever they like, then that's a good thing. It means that within that culture's meme pool, the meme for "let em do what they want" is achieving an increased representation in the meme pool. By definition, that means that the "they have their place" meme is experiencing a reduction in its representation in the meme pool. As far as you and I are concerned, that's a good thing. What the ramifications of that shift in representation will be within that culture remains to be seen.

That's the thing about systems. It is impossible to know what the effects will be of the removal/replacement of an element until the system is seen in operation after the change has been made. This is because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and because all changes have ripple effects throught the system.

Quote:It's not preservation of culture or religious beliefs anymore it falls into abuse of religious views.

Could you elaborate on this point?

Hey, GirlyMan.

Cry Freedom is an exceptional film. I cannot recommend it enough. Powerful stuff.

Quote:Just to be clear here, Matt, you are not challenging my conclusion. You are challenging Lucradis' premise.

True. My bad.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-10-2011, 12:29 PM
RE: Good Old Subservient Women
The thing about abuse of religious views, is as far as I can tell this takes place only when one is aware that other ways work and potentially for the better. If someone is aware that say skirts are better for women in so many ways, but the person making the rules for the women within that persons life prefers women in pants then that person will conveniently hold onto that one religious view. While also ignoring another that doesn't benefit them in some way.
Abuse may be a rather strong word but I find it necessary when dealing with people who refuse to admit the cherry picking aspect of religion. It helps put things into perspective. They are taking advantage of certain religious dogmas just to get what they want at the expense of someone else's potential happiness.
It cannot happen in my opinion if someone is unaware of the benefits of putting aside certain beliefs, because that person only sees things from one perspective by default. It is only when that person becomes aware through witnessing it, that the abuse can take place. Then the preferential cherry picking begins and the abuse of their own written "survival guide if you will". It's untrue to both themselves and their religion.

I don't usually stay in the conversations so long lol. I'm so tired. How do you guys do this shit every day?

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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