Good deeds done dirt cheap
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04-12-2014, 12:18 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(02-12-2014 05:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 02:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How is succor for someone who does a good deed a "cheap parlor trick"?

I don't hesitate to ask as well, what are you doing for the suffering in this world? My family and I sponsor several families overseas, have visited the hurting in nursery homes and prisons and more. I worked for years for secular and Christian nonprofit charities--taking a reduced salary for what I could make in the corporate sector to help my fellow man. It is tempting to tell others not to press God like he's a sky-piñata who dispenses miracle candies until they themselves get off the couches where they sit watching TV. The Lord helps those who help others is what I'm sayin'.

Put another way, if you want God to do magic to help others, perhaps you should begin with exercising the free will He gave you to help others.



Matthew 6:1-4 ESV

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others.
Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

Yeah, you're the True Christian™. Facepalm

You are thrice wrong, and I appreciate the chance to use "thrice" in a sentence today. Please let me point out where you are thrice wrong, understanding that I merely wish to correct your hermeneutics and mean you no harm:

1. The verses are a choice for reward, not a command that must be followed in every instance.

2. How do you know I haven't already gotten my reward and so can talk about my deep generosity to others? Wink

3. When there are two commands or precepts that seem to conflict in the Bible, go with the higher principle, e.g. I'm not to lie but absolutely would not tell Nazis I'm hiding people in my home if they ask--I would lie day and night to save a person's life, because "love thy neighbor" is above "don't lie" if there is a conflict or grey area--likewise I'm very much aware of Jesus's admonition to do good works, not in expectation of rewards from people, and quietly, but also aware of the call to witness and prove good and true things.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 12:30 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(04-12-2014 12:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. When there are two commands or precepts that seem to conflict in the Bible, go with the higher principle, e.g. I'm not to lie but absolutely would not tell Nazis I'm hiding people in my home if they ask--I would lie day and night to save a person's life, because "love thy neighbor" is above "don't lie" if there is a conflict or grey area--likewise I'm very much aware of Jesus's admonition to do good works, not in expectation of rewards from people, and quietly, but also aware of the call to witness and prove good and true things.

How do you determine which is the "higher" principle according to the bible? Jesus said to keep the commandments but also broke the sabbath; how can you tell when it is OK to break them? Why is "love thy neighbor" higher than "don't lie" when not lying is right up there in the top 10 of the commandments Jesus said to keep?

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04-12-2014, 12:44 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(04-12-2014 11:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-12-2014 01:01 PM)wazzel Wrote:  That would be a "no" to needing and imaginary deity to make me help others. I help for no other reasons than it is the good thing to do, I want to and I can. I do a lot more than most Christians I know.

I was asking TheInquisition, but please, tell us about how you do more--and then we'll go back to seeing if you know true Christians--or at least as soon as we resolve THAT issue on another thread.

PS. You are raising an epistemological question of dire importance by citing your motivation for good works as "for no other reasons than it is the good thing to do". How do you know it is good to help others? How do you know when you're enabling, not helping, a needy person? Do you believe as some New Atheists do that an atheist can hold to and follow an objective moral? Years ago, many atheists I knew said they wouldn't even use the word moral, only "ethical", and they and others would not use the word "good" in this kind of debate. On what basis are you so certain that you are doing "good"?

I would say that I help others because I love people. However, I believe love is not only chemical, but a choice of free will, an action or verb, and a spiritual force of power. How might you explain "how to do good" to someone who says, "people are nothing, just carbon compounds that are also consumers"?

Thanks.

All people that claim to be Christian are true Christians. It is not up to you to judge the validity of their faith.

I know I do more than most, because most go to church, drop a few buck in the collection and call it a day. I have some normal charities I donate to on a regular basis, I do service work from time to time and some other stuff.

I do not believe in objective morals, morals are subjective. My evaluation of what is good may differ from others, but I suspect helping others will fall in the good pile for most. I don't know what kind of trap you are trying to get me to fall for with all that long winded stuff?
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04-12-2014, 01:25 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(04-12-2014 12:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 05:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  Matthew 6:1-4 ESV

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others.
Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

Yeah, you're the True Christian™. Facepalm

You are thrice wrong, and I appreciate the chance to use "thrice" in a sentence today. Please let me point out where you are thrice wrong, understanding that I merely wish to correct your hermeneutics and mean you no harm:

1. The verses are a choice for reward, not a command that must be followed in every instance.

2. How do you know I haven't already gotten my reward and so can talk about my deep generosity to others? Wink

3. When there are two commands or precepts that seem to conflict in the Bible, go with the higher principle, e.g. I'm not to lie but absolutely would not tell Nazis I'm hiding people in my home if they ask--I would lie day and night to save a person's life, because "love thy neighbor" is above "don't lie" if there is a conflict or grey area--likewise I'm very much aware of Jesus's admonition to do good works, not in expectation of rewards from people, and quietly, but also aware of the call to witness and prove good and true things.

Your tortured, rationalized response is noted.

'"The Bible never seems to mean what it says, but says what you want it to mean.'

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-12-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(04-12-2014 12:30 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 12:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. When there are two commands or precepts that seem to conflict in the Bible, go with the higher principle, e.g. I'm not to lie but absolutely would not tell Nazis I'm hiding people in my home if they ask--I would lie day and night to save a person's life, because "love thy neighbor" is above "don't lie" if there is a conflict or grey area--likewise I'm very much aware of Jesus's admonition to do good works, not in expectation of rewards from people, and quietly, but also aware of the call to witness and prove good and true things.

How do you determine which is the "higher" principle according to the bible? Jesus said to keep the commandments but also broke the sabbath; how can you tell when it is OK to break them? Why is "love thy neighbor" higher than "don't lie" when not lying is right up there in the top 10 of the commandments Jesus said to keep?

Are you familiar with the question-and-answer sessions in the Bible where Jesus was asked which were the highest laws to keep and so on?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(04-12-2014 12:44 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 11:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I was asking TheInquisition, but please, tell us about how you do more--and then we'll go back to seeing if you know true Christians--or at least as soon as we resolve THAT issue on another thread.

PS. You are raising an epistemological question of dire importance by citing your motivation for good works as "for no other reasons than it is the good thing to do". How do you know it is good to help others? How do you know when you're enabling, not helping, a needy person? Do you believe as some New Atheists do that an atheist can hold to and follow an objective moral? Years ago, many atheists I knew said they wouldn't even use the word moral, only "ethical", and they and others would not use the word "good" in this kind of debate. On what basis are you so certain that you are doing "good"?

I would say that I help others because I love people. However, I believe love is not only chemical, but a choice of free will, an action or verb, and a spiritual force of power. How might you explain "how to do good" to someone who says, "people are nothing, just carbon compounds that are also consumers"?

Thanks.

All people that claim to be Christian are true Christians. It is not up to you to judge the validity of their faith.

I know I do more than most, because most go to church, drop a few buck in the collection and call it a day. I have some normal charities I donate to on a regular basis, I do service work from time to time and some other stuff.

I do not believe in objective morals, morals are subjective. My evaluation of what is good may differ from others, but I suspect helping others will fall in the good pile for most. I don't know what kind of trap you are trying to get me to fall for with all that long winded stuff?

ARRRGHHHHHHH! The only "trap" I'm trying to get any atheists into at this forum is to THINK about the issues rather than spout one-liners back and so on. I think Robby thinks and some others...

And it IS up to me and YOU to judge the validity of others' faith. Jesus also warned of wolves in sheep's clothing! I'm going to Heaven, but for others to get there they need to follow the right book, the right guideposts, and at some times, the right people. I tell Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses etc. where to get on and off the bus. That's like, my job, man!

I agree with you that helping others falls in the good pile for most. Now I ask what you get for doing good...?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(04-12-2014 01:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 12:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are thrice wrong, and I appreciate the chance to use "thrice" in a sentence today. Please let me point out where you are thrice wrong, understanding that I merely wish to correct your hermeneutics and mean you no harm:

1. The verses are a choice for reward, not a command that must be followed in every instance.

2. How do you know I haven't already gotten my reward and so can talk about my deep generosity to others? Wink

3. When there are two commands or precepts that seem to conflict in the Bible, go with the higher principle, e.g. I'm not to lie but absolutely would not tell Nazis I'm hiding people in my home if they ask--I would lie day and night to save a person's life, because "love thy neighbor" is above "don't lie" if there is a conflict or grey area--likewise I'm very much aware of Jesus's admonition to do good works, not in expectation of rewards from people, and quietly, but also aware of the call to witness and prove good and true things.

Your tortured, rationalized response is noted.

'"The Bible never seems to mean what it says, but says what you want it to mean.'

I see, Chas. You disagree then, and find that the admonition in Matthew is prescriptive, not descriptive? To be a Christian I MUST keep quiet about my charity? Are you willing, then, to make some boundaries like this one around the working definition of true Christian we are using?

I mean, it sure as "h-e-double-toothpicks" seemed to me that you quoted the verse and made a comment to imply that I was being an UNTRUE Christian. Do you want to go there? Can I call NTS on you now?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(04-12-2014 03:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 12:44 PM)wazzel Wrote:  All people that claim to be Christian are true Christians. It is not up to you to judge the validity of their faith.

I know I do more than most, because most go to church, drop a few buck in the collection and call it a day. I have some normal charities I donate to on a regular basis, I do service work from time to time and some other stuff.

I do not believe in objective morals, morals are subjective. My evaluation of what is good may differ from others, but I suspect helping others will fall in the good pile for most. I don't know what kind of trap you are trying to get me to fall for with all that long winded stuff?

ARRRGHHHHHHH! The only "trap" I'm trying to get any atheists into at this forum is to THINK about the issues rather than spout one-liners back and so on. I think Robby thinks and some others...

And it IS up to me and YOU to judge the validity of others' faith. Jesus also warned of wolves in sheep's clothing! I'm going to Heaven, but for others to get there they need to follow the right book, the right guideposts, and at some times, the right people. I tell Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses etc. where to get on and off the bus. That's like, my job, man!

I agree with you that helping others falls in the good pile for most. Now I ask what you get for doing good...?

Sorry I do not respond in depth. I tend to be brief, even in person. I think about lots of thing. It may not look that way to you, oh well.

No it is not. I was a catholic for a long time. Listening to the true/not true Christian thing was terribly annoying then. The standards for gaging validity of faith is all over the place and hardly reliable, even inside a single denomination.

I get nothing for doing good, nor do I expect anything.
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04-12-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
When I first drove by the man in need of help, I didn't stop. I was only thinking of myself, my need for warmth, my goals for the day and where I was going.

By the time I drove half a block to the stop sign, I began to think of what he was going through. I began to think of his needs, his desire for warmth and how his truck not working would ruin his goals for the day.

Human empathy caused me to turn back and offer my help. I wasn't doing it for a reward or because I was trying to avoid some punishment if I didn't. I did it because someone was in need and I was in a position to fulfill that need. I filled the gap.

Humans have a need to fill gaps.
It balances the equation, provides balance, but far too often when people don't know something, instead of searching for truth, they lean on a lie. That lie won't support you. You will fall down, every time.

But before you fall, it feels like that lie is supporting you. It feels like the truth, for a brief moment.

Stop filling your gaps with lies and start filling the gaps with actions, your actions, your actions to help, to research, to comfort, to truly give of yourself and think of others.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-12-2014, 03:48 PM
RE: Good deeds done dirt cheap
(04-12-2014 03:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 01:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your tortured, rationalized response is noted.

'"The Bible never seems to mean what it says, but says what you want it to mean.'

I see, Chas. You disagree then, and find that the admonition in Matthew is prescriptive, not descriptive? To be a Christian I MUST keep quiet about my charity? Are you willing, then, to make some boundaries like this one around the working definition of true Christian we are using?

I mean, it sure as "h-e-double-toothpicks" seemed to me that you quoted the verse and made a comment to imply that I was being an UNTRUE Christian. Do you want to go there? Can I call NTS on you now?

Nope - just pointing out to you that your interpretations are not necessarily correct.
Other Christians believe other things, and the Bible is not clearly enough written to be prescriptive.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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