Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
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20-12-2014, 03:09 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(19-12-2014 06:35 PM)Gordon Wrote:  And what do you think you're going to do? Go out and be the next Christopher Hitchens? All the books have been written. All the debates at universities have been had and videoed. It's all available on YouTube. You're too late.

Gordon, this is another really bad argument. I can demonstrate how bad by the fact that it works in reverse. I could say the same about religious materials and it would be even more true since they are in the majority. Can you imagine another book trying to explain the trinity? I feel ill just thinking of it.

He's not any more "too late" than you are.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

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20-12-2014, 03:23 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2014 03:40 AM by Dark Phoenix.)
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(19-12-2014 10:58 PM)Gordon Wrote:  I'm sorry. For what? To say that Jesus existed. No credible scholar holds the position that Jesus didn't exist. Only atheists do that. And I've always found that very interesting. Because it's not necessary. If God doesn't exist, Jesus is nothing. Nothing. But it's very very important to atheists today that Jesus never existed. It's even more important to them than God not existing.

I used to think it was a gay thing. Gays are outcast--or used to be--from the Christian Church, but Jesus never preached against homosexuality. Paul did, but no one claims Paul didn't exist.

So, there's something going on that I'm not getting. Something satanic is in the air. I'm just not sure what it is. For some reason, the modern atheist must make the case that Jesus never existed. Very strange. The motivation just doesn't jive.

You are not the first Theist I have talked to who was convinced that Atheists approach their world view out of desire. For those of us who care about objectivity, which I think is the majority of Atheists, we try to put our desires aside and weigh evidence. We don't just go around claiming that anyone who says something we don't agree with never existed.

Gordon, it doesn't matter what we want. It matters what's true. I really believe that is important. I think that when you claim that Atheists have an agenda it is just another reason you invent not to take us seriously. If you don't take what we say into account when forming your opinions about who we are, I don't see how we can have a discussion. Your beliefs cannot be immune to change if you want to be accurate. I think you would be hard pressed to find a single one of us who wouldn't change our minds if we were presented with historical evidence that Jesus lived.

Can anyone back me up on this? Wouldn't we change our minds?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

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20-12-2014, 03:33 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(19-12-2014 11:35 PM)Gordon Wrote:  This has nothing to do with him being an atheist. And I can't say one way or the other if he's telling the truth. I'm saying there are things that don't add up, that's all. He's an anonymous member in a social media forum. My point is that it doesn't do any good in that environment to brag about accomplishments or educational degrees or experience, because it's utterly unverifiable. Anyone can say anything.

Actually, that's a lot like the Gospels. They're anonymous documents. Either they work or they don't, and that's all they're worth. Nothing can really be known about them. They are strictly what you see is what you get.

Same in here. Yes

Why won't you accept a perfectly ordinary claim, like having attended a university, over an anonymous forum, but you expect us to believe all kinds of extraordinary supernatural claims under the same circumstances? You seem to grasp wanting evidence just fine in his case, why can't you grasp it in yours?

I would like to know if you think that makes you a hypocrite or not.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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20-12-2014, 03:45 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(20-12-2014 03:23 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Can anyone back me up on this? Wouldn't we change our minds?

I would be more than happy to be wrong about the eternity in paradise after we die bit. But there's no reason to think that there exists another realm where 'we' go to after we die. There's no reason to think that once the electrical firings in our brain stops, once the complex chemical reactions that maintain our lives end, that we do anything else but simply cease to exist in anything more than the memories of others.

And until there is far better evidence than anything Egor thinks he has brought to the table, I'm reserving judgement and siding with what is simply more probable given the current state of the evidence. Namely that there is no evidence in support of the super natural, all questions we've ever answered to a sufficiently satisfactory degree have always turned out to be 'not magic', and there is nothing proposed by any religion that cannot be explained far more plausibly with natural explanations (misconceptions, lies, plagiarism, psychology, tradition, indoctrination, peer pressure, fraud, conformity, etc.).

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20-12-2014, 06:15 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(20-12-2014 03:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I would be more than happy to be wrong about the eternity in paradise after we die bit.

If it's the paradise conjured by the limited imaginations of goat herders then I'll pass Drinking Beverage

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-12-2014, 06:28 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(20-12-2014 06:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 03:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I would be more than happy to be wrong about the eternity in paradise after we die bit.

If it's the paradise conjured by the limited imaginations of goat herders then I'll pass Drinking Beverage

Depends. I like the What Dreams May Come version. If only.

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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20-12-2014, 08:13 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(20-12-2014 03:23 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Can anyone back me up on this? Wouldn't we change our minds?

Absolutely. I read as much as I can about the history and listen to the arguments on both sides because it seems so odd that SO many people can believe something that I don't. I want to be sure that I am basing my beliefs on the evidence and not just being contrary. If there were good evidence for a god, or even just for Jesus having existed, I would change my mind. To deny it in the face of evidence, or to accept it without evidence, would be irrational.

(20-12-2014 03:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And until there is far better evidence than anything Egor thinks he has brought to the table, I'm reserving judgement and siding with what is simply more probable given the current state of the evidence. Namely that there is no evidence in support of the super natural, all questions we've ever answered to a sufficiently satisfactory degree have always turned out to be 'not magic', and there is nothing proposed by any religion that cannot be explained far more plausibly with natural explanations (misconceptions, lies, plagiarism, psychology, tradition, indoctrination, peer pressure, fraud, conformity, etc.).

^ What EK said.

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20-12-2014, 08:26 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(20-12-2014 03:23 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Can anyone back me up on this? Wouldn't we change our minds?

Would we? I can just see Chas knocking Peter the fuck out. Big Grin

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20-12-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(20-12-2014 06:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 03:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I would be more than happy to be wrong about the eternity in paradise after we die bit.

If it's the paradise conjured by the limited imaginations of goat herders then I'll pass Drinking Beverage

To be fair, even I wouldn't consider it 'paradise' unless there was an option to eventually opt-out and simply cease to be. On an infinite timeline, eventually I would simply run out of things to do and be curious about. It might take a really long time, but it would eventually happen, and once it does I think that continued existence (especially an eternal one) would turn into torture.

Even the best party in the universe becomes a prison if you lack the option to leave. Drinking Beverage

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20-12-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: Gordonic Derrangement- Not Pleased to Meet You Twice
(20-12-2014 08:26 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 03:23 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Can anyone back me up on this? Wouldn't we change our minds?

Would we? I can just see Chas knocking Peter the fuck out. Big Grin

Huh

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