Government is Irrational.
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16-07-2013, 07:04 AM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2013 07:11 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Government is Irrational.
(16-07-2013 04:56 AM)Koolay Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 04:29 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If you don't understand why governments form, how can you criticize the logic behind it?

This thread is not about the origins of government, but merely analysing the logical consistency of governments.

You must then understand the origin of a government and why they form in order to accurately criticize them. Otherwise, it is like criticizing the theory of evolution without understanding how it operates and why it occurs.

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16-07-2013, 07:52 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
Quote:Why would I have a solution? I am just one person

Following this logic, why the fuck should I give a fuck about your opinion then?
You are afterall just one person who doesn't know best.

Quote:Are you are agreeing that Government is a contradictory entity?

No I'm not.
My opinions on government differ greatly from yours.
My opinion also entails a workable solution to my criticisms.

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16-07-2013, 08:24 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
Oh god, he made an account over here too?

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16-07-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(16-07-2013 08:24 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Oh god, he made an account over here too?

Confused

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16-07-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(16-07-2013 04:02 AM)Koolay Wrote:  
(15-07-2013 09:04 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Actually, the principle is that if individuals do those things is bad, butif government (as representatives of the people) do it, then it's good.

Then it's not a principle.

If I say "rape is wrong, except for if you are wearing a hat while doing so" then obviously I don't really care about the principle of 'rape is wrong' if I just arbitrarily create exceptions to the rule. Either all rape must be wrong or none for it to be a valid principle.

Saying "bombing, killing and stealing from people is wrong, but if you have a badge and a blue costume then it is okay" That would be equally absurd and wrong, yet scarily all too normalised by society.

I also said this:

(15-07-2013 09:04 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Not saying that it's actually good, that's up for debate, but the principles are logically correct, at least for your examples

Which means the same that you said. But at least I understand that logic is not thse same as ethics. If you want to say that government is UNETHICAL then by all means, I'll probably agree with you in many many aspects. But if you want to say it's ILLOGICAL, then stick to logic and keep ethics out of the way.

An exception to a principle, even if it's unethical and monstrous, logically it's just that, an exception.

If you say that murder is bad unless you wear a hat, then if I kill someone while wearing a hat, I didn't do anything bad LOGICALLY!!!!

the rule can be bad ETHICALLY, but LOGICALLY I didn't do anything wrong.

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17-07-2013, 06:23 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(16-07-2013 01:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 04:02 AM)Koolay Wrote:  Then it's not a principle.

If I say "rape is wrong, except for if you are wearing a hat while doing so" then obviously I don't really care about the principle of 'rape is wrong' if I just arbitrarily create exceptions to the rule. Either all rape must be wrong or none for it to be a valid principle.

Saying "bombing, killing and stealing from people is wrong, but if you have a badge and a blue costume then it is okay" That would be equally absurd and wrong, yet scarily all too normalised by society.

I also said this:

(15-07-2013 09:04 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Not saying that it's actually good, that's up for debate, but the principles are logically correct, at least for your examples

Which means the same that you said. But at least I understand that logic is not thse same as ethics. If you want to say that government is UNETHICAL then by all means, I'll probably agree with you in many many aspects. But if you want to say it's ILLOGICAL, then stick to logic and keep ethics out of the way.

An exception to a principle, even if it's unethical and monstrous, logically it's just that, an exception.

If you say that murder is bad unless you wear a hat, then if I kill someone while wearing a hat, I didn't do anything bad LOGICALLY!!!!

the rule can be bad ETHICALLY, but LOGICALLY I didn't do anything wrong.

But if there is a condition or exception to a principle, then it is no longer a valid principle, thus illogical. If someone or an entity makes up exceptions for them self and others for a claimed principle, then it is no longer a principle by definition.

So do you accept that governments are immoral?
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17-07-2013, 06:56 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 06:23 AM)Koolay Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 01:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I also said this:


Which means the same that you said. But at least I understand that logic is not thse same as ethics. If you want to say that government is UNETHICAL then by all means, I'll probably agree with you in many many aspects. But if you want to say it's ILLOGICAL, then stick to logic and keep ethics out of the way.

An exception to a principle, even if it's unethical and monstrous, logically it's just that, an exception.

If you say that murder is bad unless you wear a hat, then if I kill someone while wearing a hat, I didn't do anything bad LOGICALLY!!!!

the rule can be bad ETHICALLY, but LOGICALLY I didn't do anything wrong.

But if there is a condition or exception to a principle, then it is no longer a valid principle, thus illogical. If someone or an entity makes up exceptions for them self and others for a claimed principle, then it is no longer a principle by definition.

So do you accept that governments are immoral?

No, I do not. Government is not inherently immoral; some governments are.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
Your premise is fatally flawed and infantile, if you look at the world the best places to live have the most government, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian Countries. The worst places have the least effective governments Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan.

Government is not immoral or irrational but the people running them can be. Government is a tool, it is not sentient therefore it can be used for good (healthcare, education, promotion of freedoms) or evil (repression, rape, murder, torture). Also of note is that not all Governments are created equal, the western style Social Democracy is the best form of government yet created (not perfect but better than anything else out there)

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17-07-2013, 11:00 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 06:23 AM)Koolay Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 01:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I also said this:


Which means the same that you said. But at least I understand that logic is not thse same as ethics. If you want to say that government is UNETHICAL then by all means, I'll probably agree with you in many many aspects. But if you want to say it's ILLOGICAL, then stick to logic and keep ethics out of the way.

An exception to a principle, even if it's unethical and monstrous, logically it's just that, an exception.

If you say that murder is bad unless you wear a hat, then if I kill someone while wearing a hat, I didn't do anything bad LOGICALLY!!!!

the rule can be bad ETHICALLY, but LOGICALLY I didn't do anything wrong.

But if there is a condition or exception to a principle, then it is no longer a valid principle, thus illogical. If someone or an entity makes up exceptions for them self and others for a claimed principle, then it is no longer a principle by definition.

So do you accept that governments are immoral?

no I don't, it is possible, but that's another debate.

And of all my studies in law school I tell you, I'm yet to find a principle in law without exceptions. juridic principles are not the same as logical ones.
Also, more than an exception, is a limit to the extent of the applicability of the principle.

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17-07-2013, 11:19 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Your premise is fatally flawed and infantile, if you look at the world the best places to live have the most government, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian Countries. The worst places have the least effective governments Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan.

I guess you took out North Korea, USSR, Cuba, Nazi Germany, Venezuela, many more.

Even if that pattern is correct? so what? That's an argument from effect, not principle.

I do not care about what you think maximises good, I care about what is logically correct.

(17-07-2013 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Government is not immoral or irrational but the people running them can be.

Yep, well. No. All of them are immoral. There is no excuse for voluntarily participating in evil.

(17-07-2013 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Government is a tool, it is not sentient therefore it can be used for good (healthcare, education, promotion of freedoms) or evil (repression, rape, murder, torture).

So you are saying that slavery is good and bad too? Since slave masters gave their slaves food and shelter, so by that reasoning, you would have to argue that slavery does good and bad too.

(17-07-2013 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Also of note is that not all Governments are created equal, the western style Social Democracy is the best form of government yet created (not perfect but better than anything else out there)

Even if that is true (Idk how you measure that).

So what? All governments are violent monopolies, each have their own twist and rhetoric. I'd rather have zero violent monopolies.
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