Government is Irrational.
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17-07-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 11:00 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 06:23 AM)Koolay Wrote:  But if there is a condition or exception to a principle, then it is no longer a valid principle, thus illogical. If someone or an entity makes up exceptions for them self and others for a claimed principle, then it is no longer a principle by definition.

So do you accept that governments are immoral?
juridic principles are not the same as logical ones.

So you admit that government law is illogical?
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17-07-2013, 11:45 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 11:20 AM)Koolay Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 11:00 AM)nach_in Wrote:  juridic principles are not the same as logical ones.

So you admit that government law is illogical?

No, at the basic level you're speaking of, the justification of government is logically sound.
Dude, you need to go back to logic 101

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17-07-2013, 11:47 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 11:45 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 11:20 AM)Koolay Wrote:  So you admit that government law is illogical?

No, at the basic level you're speaking of, the justification of government is logically sound.

How? the government enforces it's will upon people and violates all of their own rules a million times over. It is not rational.
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17-07-2013, 11:49 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 11:19 AM)Koolay Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Your premise is fatally flawed and infantile, if you look at the world the best places to live have the most government, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian Countries. The worst places have the least effective governments Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan.

I guess you took out North Korea, USSR, Cuba, Nazi Germany, Venezuela, many more.
You were ok until you listed Cuba, whilst being a Dictatorship they actually have a very high standard of living. You also missed the point but then you are arguing from emotion not logic.

Quote:Even if that pattern is correct? so what? That's an argument from effect, not principle.

I do not care about what you think maximises good, I care about what is logically correct.

Arguing from effect as opposed to what exactly? Making nonsensical statements with no evidence or proof , you got that covered.
Quote:
(17-07-2013 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Government is not immoral or irrational but the people running them can be.

Yep, well. No. All of them are immoral. There is no excuse for voluntarily participating in evil.

No as I said Government is Amoral. Government is not a sentient being therefore it cannot have morality.
Quote:
(17-07-2013 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Government is a tool, it is not sentient therefore it can be used for good (healthcare, education, promotion of freedoms) or evil (repression, rape, murder, torture).

So you are saying that slavery is good and bad too? Since slave masters gave their slaves food and shelter, so by that reasoning, you would have to argue that slavery does good and bad too.

Ahh this old tripe. Slavery is an immoral practice because it inherently removes freedom from people. Good Governments promote Freedom.
Quote:
(17-07-2013 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Also of note is that not all Governments are created equal, the western style Social Democracy is the best form of government yet created (not perfect but better than anything else out there)

Even if that is true (Idk how you measure that).

So what? All governments are violent monopolies, each have their own twist and rhetoric. I'd rather have zero violent monopolies.

How do I measure it well there are many ways standard of living, happiness index, health of population, life expectancy all of which the countries I mentioned top the board in. Like every other Anarchist here you have no plan and no facts to back up your statements. Good Government is better than bad government, but Bad government is still preferable to no government for examples of that see the tribal area of Pakistan, the war torn areas of Africa, the western half of Mexico. All of those Areas are outside of government control and as such are run by the biggest psychopaths with the most weapons. That is what happens when you remove government.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-07-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: Government is Irrational.
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17-07-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 11:47 AM)Koolay Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 11:45 AM)nach_in Wrote:  No, at the basic level you're speaking of, the justification of government is logically sound.

How? the government enforces it's will upon people and violates all of their own rules a million times over. It is not rational.

Chose a word and stay with it, you're being illogical (changing terms as if they mean the same): logical is not the same as irrational, and that's different than ethical... What are you talking about here? logic, rationality (which one), ethics? pick one and stop bouncing around.

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17-07-2013, 03:06 PM
RE: Government is Irrational.
Show me one ounce of evidence that anything you have claimed is any more than delusion I have offered up real world proof of my assertions.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-07-2013, 05:15 PM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 03:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Show me one ounce of evidence that anything you have claimed is any more than delusion I have offered up real world proof of my assertions.

Evidence for what?

You want evidence showing that government initiates force?
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17-07-2013, 05:41 PM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 05:15 PM)Koolay Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 03:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Show me one ounce of evidence that anything you have claimed is any more than delusion I have offered up real world proof of my assertions.

Evidence for what?

You want evidence showing that government initiates force?

Governments may respond with force.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2013, 05:47 PM
RE: Government is Irrational.
(17-07-2013 05:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 05:15 PM)Koolay Wrote:  Evidence for what?

You want evidence showing that government initiates force?

Governments may respond with force.

'Respond'? How does the government 'respond' if government is not invited in anyone's life to begin with.

'Government is responding with force to gay people wanting to get married'

No, the government doesn't respond, it initiates force.

'Respond' is the wrong word.
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