Great Christian Fallacies.
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12-05-2013, 06:15 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2013 09:47 PM by Mr Woof.)
Great Christian Fallacies.
God's Perfect Goodness WE must ask if it is reasonable to believe that any potential cosmic state entails perfection. Perfect, in relationship to what universal unchanging absolute? Also, if such state, or state approaching such existed are we, or some of us party to it? A "perfect state of being would negate any change, creativity, action, challenge or betterment.........after all how do we improve on such? The whole concept sounds like stagnation, or the playing of endless cosmic computer games for some dubious final answer......

The Free Will Fallacy. A God who created all of the aspects of our existence could only give us freedom within a predetermined state of being. As this state of being can be utilized to cause misery to man and beast in the extreme, it follows that the orchestrator of such(God) must be held to account and not his creations for testing the waters. If a brilliant designer designs a less than brilliant aeroplane with a built in fault to test the efficiency of his crew and the plane crashes, surely the designer is primarily at fault.In never challenging God the believer happily fobs off the bona fides of his nature.

The Great Fall Fallacy How is the nature of the perfection from which a fall occurred assessed.This really comes across as an oxymoron! Perfection, as defined, is the ultimate, something to be clinged to, rather than escape from.It is argued that the escapees were evil and ungrateful, not appreciating their lot so absconded from an ideal state.Quite simply the ideal state is designed to give fatuous reasoning as to mankind's predicament and his means of getting back on track.

The Omniscience Fallacy. An eternal all knowing God is posited as knowing ALL, past, future, and present. This is seen as a prerequisite for that position, any less creating uncertainty and placing us all on shaky grounds. Unfortunately. by being all knowing God is locked in to his ordained past/present/future system so cannot, within this definition, alter his past perfect considerations. This of course also flies in the face of his omnipotence (total power) which seems to contradict the substance of his total/absolute planning. Clearly the words being used do not make sense, at least at the secular level.

The Great Test Fallacy. If we ignore the pre destination fallacy of Calvin( it all happened in Heaven and God is playing silly games) then we are left with a fair test of human beings existing (arguably) foetus to senility, some nine or ten decades at the maximum, all to be fairly tested for squillions of years of afterlife and all that this scenario magically entails. Clearly the qualifying period is way out of synch with the envisaged future.Even if ongoing tests were part of the plan any ultimate purpose along with the serious[/font] trapping along the way are not considered

I have indicated but five simple fallacies. Within Judaism and Islam they are also grossly prevelant and rest on the initial premise that a stupendous super perfect God exists Universally, yet gives no sound evidence for this, or even mild suggestion, given life as history has presented itself to us. These religions are bizarre, irrational, disturbing, degrading to our intellect, irresponsible,monetarily grasping,simplistic, and potentially very dangerous.

Any potentially higher cosmic concepts are not served well by such buffoonery

"Science without religion is lame.
Religion without science is blind"_ Einstein.
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12-05-2013, 06:59 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The Great Test Fallacy. If we ignore the pre destination fallacy of Calvin( it all happened in Heaven and God is playing silly games) then we are left with a fair test of human beings existing (arguably) foetus to senility, some nine or ten decades at the maximum, all to be fairly tested for squillions of years of afterlife and all that this scenario magically entails. Clearly the qualifying period is way out of synch with the envisaged future.Even if ongoing tests were part of the plan any ultimate purpose along with the serious trapping along the way are not considered

I love how the omniscient God is testing us to discover whether we should go to heaven or hell.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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12-05-2013, 07:56 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2013 08:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  These religions are bizarre, irrational, disturbing, degrading to our intellect, irresponsible,monetarily grasping,simplistic, and potentially very dangerous.

Yup. I find it all very patronizing.

(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Any potentially higher cosmic concepts are not served well by such buffoonery.

I think that may be even more important point, Woofmeister. Rationalism and empiricism are not mutually exclusive. Reason is a well-paved path to knowledge, but sometimes direct experience is all you can get. Reason has already identified its own limitations. The religious buffoonery just gets in the way of that.

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13-05-2013, 08:26 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The Omniscience Fallacy. An eternal all knowing God is posited as knowing ALL, past, future, and present. This is seen as a prerequisite for that position, any less creating uncertainty and placing us all on shaky grounds. Unfortunately. by being all knowing God is locked in to his ordained past/present/future system so cannot, within this definition, alter his past perfect considerations. This of course also flies in the face of his omnipotence (total power) which seems to contradict the substance of his total/absolute planning. Clearly the words being used do not make sense, at least at the secular level.
Good post. I just wanted to comment on this one because I believe it contains a logical flaw. (I'm certainly not arguing for the existence of a god.) The logical flaw is concluding that because of his past perfect considerations, God cannot alter them. I think the correct conclusion is that God would not alter them, not that he could not. So this therefore is not a valid argument against omniscience or omnipotence. That said, I think all we have to do is look around in order to realize that, if such a god existed, his past considerations could not have been perfect at all.

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13-05-2013, 09:34 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Oh, I have one....

God exists.

Flawed foundation... all related conclusions derived from this premise are demonstrably false and thus, wholly irrelevant.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-05-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Great post Woof Smile
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13-05-2013, 12:50 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Ah, I'll take a shot if that's okay with you:

Quote:God's Perfect Goodness WE must ask if it is reasonable to believe that any potential cosmic state entails perfection. Perfect, in relationship to what universal unchanging absolute? Also, if such state, or state approaching such existed are we, or some of us party to it? A "perfect state of being would negate any change, creativity, action, challenge or betterment.........after all how do we improve on such? The whole concept sounds like stagnation, or the playing of endless cosmic computer games for some dubious final answer......

The absolute you're mentioning means merely, "without wrongdoing/sin". God is perfectly good and never does anything that a person would do that is sinful. If God is angry, He has a just reason. He doesn't covet another's for all is His. He doesn't play favorites and place someone ahead or behind based on skin color or intelligence, etc. Surely we've seen approaches to this perfection based on love. Surely some of us have parents, guardians or a partner who loves us always and unconditionally.

Quote:The Free Will Fallacy. A God who created all of the aspects of our existence could only give us freedom within a predetermined state of being. As this state of being can be utilized to cause misery to man and beast in the extreme, it follows that the orchestrator of such(God) must be held to account and not his creations for testing the waters. If a brilliant designer designs a less than brilliant aeroplane with a built in fault to test the efficiency of his crew and the plane crashes, surely the designer is primarily at fault.In never challenging God the believer happily fobs off the bona fides of his nature.

An interesting concept, especially since it's typically test pilots who sign waivers of responsibility and also pilots and not designers who are considered liable in this case--the case where the design was quite good and made of good parts but the plane was abused.

Quote:The Great Fall Fallacy How is the nature of the perfection from which a fall occurred assessed.This really comes across as an oxymoron! Perfection, as defined, is the ultimate, something to be clinged to, rather than escape from.It is argued that the escapees were evil and ungrateful, not appreciating their lot so absconded from an ideal state.Quite simply the ideal state is designed to give fatuous reasoning as to mankind's predicament and his means of getting back on track.
Again, my perspective is from the scriptures but while God is perfectly good, it says His creation was "good" or "very good" but not perfect.

Quote:The Omniscience Fallacy. An eternal all knowing God is posited as knowing ALL, past, future, and present. This is seen as a prerequisite for that position, any less creating uncertainty and placing us all on shaky grounds. Unfortunately. by being all knowing God is locked in to his ordained past/present/future system so cannot, within this definition, alter his past perfect considerations. This of course also flies in the face of his omnipotence (total power) which seems to contradict the substance of his total/absolute planning. Clearly the words being used do not make sense, at least at the secular level.

God is "locked" into the present system, having chosen the optimal of possibilities in this universe for executing His plan. I guess I'm trying to understand from God's perspective where He has lost His free will or power. The universe sure seems to maintain its physical Newtonian laws, for example. It's not utterly broken.

Quote:The Great Test Fallacy. If we ignore the pre destination fallacy of Calvin( it all happened in Heaven and God is playing silly games) then we are left with a fair test of human beings existing (arguably) foetus to senility, some nine or ten decades at the maximum, all to be fairly tested for squillions of years of afterlife and all that this scenario magically entails. Clearly the qualifying period is way out of synch with the envisaged future.Even if ongoing tests were part of the plan any ultimate purpose along with the serious[/font] trapping along the way are not considered

This is the half-empty glass I see not only with freethinkers but some Christians. I probably do it too much rather than not enough on this forum, but some of you read dozens of appeals from me monthly to your heart, will and reason for Christ. You won't be in Heaven or Hell because of some spin of a roulette wheel but rather, each of you has friends, family and/or acquaintances witnessing to you, people on the radio and TV when you flip dials witnessing to you, and the witness of creation and the natural order itself. These "80 or 90 years" of course seem brief in certain perspectives but also represent thousands of possibilities for repentance and a relationship with God.

Quote:I have indicated but five simple fallacies. Within Judaism and Islam they are also grossly prevelant and rest on the initial premise that a stupendous super perfect God exists Universally, yet gives no sound evidence for this, or even mild suggestion, given life as history has presented itself to us. These religions are bizarre, irrational, disturbing, degrading to our intellect, irresponsible,monetarily grasping,simplistic, and potentially very dangerous.

I agree about the danger when taken too far per your terms as you've defined them. You've changed what Jews, Muslims and Christians know as a good creation to a perfect creation and etc. and set up some straw men (unintentional straw men) IMO.

Let's go back to first principles. Instead of this omniscient, omnipotent being let's start with superior in power, intellect and goodness. How do we respond to a benevelont and wise, powerful leader. We admire Lincoln, Ghandi and Dr. King. Any admiration for their Father?

Quote:Any potentially higher cosmic concepts are not served well by such buffoonery

Agreed if we can correct or amend the straw men of your argument. Thanks.
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13-05-2013, 06:20 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2013 06:37 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(13-05-2013 12:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Ah, I'll take a shot if that's okay with you:

Quote:God's Perfect Goodness WE must ask if it is reasonable to believe that any potential cosmic state entails perfection. Perfect, in relationship to what universal unchanging absolute? Also, if such state, or state approaching such existed are we, or some of us party to it? A "perfect state of being would negate any change, creativity, action, challenge or betterment.........after all how do we improve on such? The whole concept sounds like stagnation, or the playing of endless cosmic computer games for some dubious final answer......

The absolute you're mentioning means merely, "without wrongdoing/sin". God is perfectly good and never does anything that a person would do that is sinful. If God is angry, He has a just reason. He doesn't covet another's for all is His. He doesn't play favorites and place someone ahead or behind based on skin color or intelligence, etc. Surely we've seen approaches to this perfection based on love. Surely some of us have parents, guardians or a partner who loves us always and unconditionally

Quote:The Free Will Fallacy. A God who created all of the aspects of our existence could only give us freedom within a predetermined state of being. As this state of being can be utilized to cause misery to man and beast in the extreme, it follows that the orchestrator of such(God) must be held to account and not his creations for testing the waters. If a brilliant designer designs a less than brilliant aeroplane with a built in fault to test the efficiency of his crew and the plane crashes, surely the designer is primarily at fault.In never challenging God the believer happily fobs off the bona fides of his nature.

An interesting concept, especially since it's typically test pilots who sign waivers of responsibility and also pilots and not designers who are considered liable in this case--the case where the design was quite good and made of good parts but the plane was abused.

Quote:The Great Fall Fallacy How is the nature of the perfection from which a fall occurred assessed.This really comes across as an oxymoron! Perfection, as defined, is the ultimate, something to be clinged to, rather than escape from.It is argued that the escapees were evil and ungrateful, not appreciating their lot so absconded from an ideal state.Quite simply the ideal state is designed to give fatuous reasoning as to mankind's predicament and his means of getting back on track.
Again, my perspective is from the scriptures but while God is perfectly good, it says His creation was "good" or "very good" but not perfect.

Quote:The Omniscience Fallacy. An eternal all knowing God is posited as knowing ALL, past, future, and present. This is seen as a prerequisite for that position, any less creating uncertainty and placing us all on shaky grounds. Unfortunately. by being all knowing God is locked in to his ordained past/present/future system so cannot, within this definition, alter his past perfect considerations. This of course also flies in the face of his omnipotence (total power) which seems to contradict the substance of his total/absolute planning. Clearly the words being used do not make sense, at least at the secular level.

God is "locked" into the present system, having chosen the optimal of possibilities in this universe for executing His plan. I guess I'm trying to understand from God's perspective where He has lost His free will or power. The universe sure seems to maintain its physical Newtonian laws, for example. It's not utterly broken.

Quote:The Great Test Fallacy. If we ignore the pre destination fallacy of Calvin( it all happened in Heaven and God is playing silly games) then we are left with a fair test of human beings existing (arguably) foetus to senility, some nine or ten decades at the maximum, all to be fairly tested for squillions of years of afterlife and all that this scenario magically entails. Clearly the qualifying period is way out of synch with the envisaged future.Even if ongoing tests were part of the plan any ultimate purpose along with the serious[/font] trapping along the way are not considered

This is the half-empty glass I see not only with freethinkers but some Christians. I probably do it too much rather than not enough on this forum, but some of you read dozens of appeals from me monthly to your heart, will and reason for Christ. You won't be in Heaven or Hell because of some spin of a roulette wheel but rather, each of you has friends, family and/or acquaintances witnessing to you, people on the radio and TV when you flip dials witnessing to you, and the witness of creation and the natural order itself. These "80 or 90 years" of course seem brief in certain perspectives but also represent thousands of possibilities for repentance and a relationship with God.

Quote:I have indicated but five simple fallacies. Within Judaism and Islam they are also grossly prevelant and rest on the initial premise that a stupendous super perfect God exists Universally, yet gives no sound evidence for this, or even mild suggestion, given life as history has presented itself to us. These religions are bizarre, irrational, disturbing, degrading to our intellect, irresponsible,monetarily grasping,simplistic, and potentially very dangerous.

I agree about the danger when taken too far per your terms as you've defined them. You've changed what Jews, Muslims and Christians know as a good creation to a perfect creation and etc. and set up some straw men (unintentional straw men) IMO.

Let's go back to first principles. Instead of this omniscient, omnipotent being let's start with superior in power, intellect and goodness. How do we respond to a benevelont and wise, powerful leader. We admire Lincoln, Ghandi and Dr. King. Any admiration for their Father?

Quote:Any potentially higher cosmic concepts are not served well by such buffoonery

Agreed if we can correct or amend the straw men of your argument. Thanks.

Thank you, I will elaborate on the points you have chosen to address.

(1)"Merely means without wrong doing sin". In placing human beings in an ultra short test of sorts, with no justification as to His essential purpose, outcome, rationale, authority and at the expense of horrendous suffering (natural and instigated) does not IMO, on the face of things make for a loving/capable God.
I do not see God's attitude towards beasts of burden, the lame, the psychotic, depressed, blind, disfigured, starving etc as a sane precursor to events postulated.
Withoutsome suffering the creative action to alleviate it would not be necessary; the suffering the Judaeo/ Christian God allows/ creates seems grossly excessive relative to any kindly plan for humanity.

(2) Just as well for the test pilots......perhaps God should have given us an opt out clause? Why was the plane abused?

(3) The fact that the Universe sort of plods along is not illustrative of the Christian god's claim of many wonderful palaces within his father's mansion, streets paved in gold (Revelations) in Heaven.....rather upper class, all of which seems to depict an eternal life sadly polluted by the reality we perceive about us and no reasonable considerations relevant to a better and saner after life.

(4) Why should I repent for something my alleged spiritual forbears did by allegedly creating permanent and indelible sin. I don't want Jimmy Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert, or even Jim Jones appealing on my behalf for entry into some weird cosmic club.
Christians really need to look at the 'original sin' notion along with God's grandiose state which defies logic.

You have not elaborated on my straw man fallacies, so I am not sure as to what you are referring?Ad fidem arguments, premised thus, really need a lot of working on IMHO.

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Religion without science is blind"_ Einstein.
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14-05-2013, 08:05 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:Thank you, I will elaborate on the points you have chosen to address.

Thank you, Mr. Woof, for your courteous and thoughtful replies. I'd like to address some of your points.

Quote:(1)"Merely means without wrong doing sin". In placing human beings in an ultra short test of sorts, with no justification as to His essential purpose, outcome, rationale, authority and at the expense of horrendous suffering (natural and instigated) does not IMO, on the face of things make for a loving/capable God.
I do not see God's attitude towards beasts of burden, the lame, the psychotic, depressed, blind, disfigured, starving etc as a sane precursor to events postulated.
Withoutsome suffering the creative action to alleviate it would not be necessary; the suffering the Judaeo/ Christian God allows/ creates seems grossly excessive relative to any kindly plan for humanity.

There are dozens of justifications offered in the scriptures. I come to the table with the same objections and questions as you. I look to philosophy, logic and other's opinions, but the scriptures speak on the testing of man. The whole book of Job (I would argue) is written for two reasons: 1. Prophecies of the coming Messiah, Jesus 2. Explanations and reasons for this present world and the testing of people

Quote:(2) Just as well for the test pilots......perhaps God should have given us an opt out clause? Why was the plane abused?

Sorry that my analogy was a poor choice and unclear. God gives us very, very good, not perfect bodies. God gives us very good souls. We abuse them or not. We choose to follow God or not. We pray to Jesus or not. We write poems, make love, make children and build great works. We kill, steal and lust, too. Test pilots who want to "push the limits" of their bodies and souls can survive or sometimes crash and burn. I never blame the plane manufacturer if the plane can be demonstrated to have been of good manufacture.

Quote:(3) The fact that the Universe sort of plods along is not illustrative of the Christian god's claim of many wonderful palaces within his father's mansion, streets paved in gold (Revelations) in Heaven.....rather upper class, all of which seems to depict an eternal life sadly polluted by the reality we perceive about us and no reasonable considerations relevant to a better and saner after life.

I prefer the translation "many rooms" not "many mansions". Eternal life for believer and infidel alike is an everlasting body that experiences pain and hunger and etc. differently. It's a choice. Every one of the poorest, most deprived persons can go to Heaven. It's actually vice versa from what you wrote--which I can see is heartfelt, really I can--many of the richest on Earth want nothing of afterlife rewards and many of the most deprived are godly people who await some good things. Remember, there are blessings on Earth too for Christians! I feel like non-Christians make Christianity about the afterlife when God and people are way too practical to be constantly focused on the great beyond.

Quote:(4) Why should I repent for something my alleged spiritual forbears did by allegedly creating permanent and indelible sin. I don't want Jimmy Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert, or even Jim Jones appealing on my behalf for entry into some weird cosmic club.
Christians really need to look at the 'original sin' notion along with God's grandiose state which defies logic.

You have not elaborated on my straw man fallacies, so I am not sure as to what you are referring?Ad fidem arguments, premised thus, really need a lot of working on IMHO.

I've never done that. I've never prayed in over 20 years for anything my antecedents did. I'm tempted to sin, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. You too?

When I say straw man, I did not mean it as some kind of ad hom accusation. I'm merely asking you to review your syllogisms with care. YOU ARE RIGHT in much of your post if things are as you say. But, for example, the creation was made good and not perfect, which is different. If it was made perfect, you would be 100% right. An (unwitting) straw man argument was composed.

Thanks.
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14-05-2013, 04:38 PM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2013 04:45 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(13-05-2013 12:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Ah, I'll take a shot if that's okay with you:

Quote:God's Perfect Goodness WE must ask if it is reasonable to believe that any potential cosmic state entails perfection. Perfect, in relationship to what universal unchanging absolute? Also, if such state, or state approaching such existed are we, or some of us party to it? A "perfect state of being would negate any change, creativity, action, challenge or betterment.........after all how do we improve on such? The whole concept sounds like stagnation, or the playing of endless cosmic computer games for some dubious final answer......

The absolute you're mentioning means merely, "without wrongdoing/sin". God is perfectly good and never does anything that a person would do that is sinful. If God is angry, He has a just reason. He doesn't covet another's for all is His. He doesn't play favorites and place someone ahead or behind based on skin color or intelligence, etc. Surely we've seen approaches to this perfection based on love. Surely some of us have parents, guardians or a partner who loves us always and unconditionally.

Quote:The Free Will Fallacy. A God who created all of the aspects of our existence could only give us freedom within a predetermined state of being. As this state of being can be utilized to cause misery to man and beast in the extreme, it follows that the orchestrator of such(God) must be held to account and not his creations for testing the waters. If a brilliant designer designs a less than brilliant aeroplane with a built in fault to test the efficiency of his crew and the plane crashes, surely the designer is primarily at fault.In never challenging God the believer happily fobs off the bona fides of his nature.

An interesting concept, especially since it's typically test pilots who sign waivers of responsibility and also pilots and not designers who are considered liable in this case--the case where the design was quite good and made of good parts but the plane was abused.

Quote:The Great Fall Fallacy How is the nature of the perfection from which a fall occurred assessed.This really comes across as an oxymoron! Perfection, as defined, is the ultimate, something to be clinged to, rather than escape from.It is argued that the escapees were evil and ungrateful, not appreciating their lot so absconded from an ideal state.Quite simply the ideal state is designed to give fatuous reasoning as to mankind's predicament and his means of getting back on track.
Again, my perspective is from the scriptures but while God is perfectly good, it says His creation was "good" or "very good" but not perfect.

Quote:The Omniscience Fallacy. An eternal all knowing God is posited as knowing ALL, past, future, and present. This is seen as a prerequisite for that position, any less creating uncertainty and placing us all on shaky grounds. Unfortunately. by being all knowing God is locked in to his ordained past/present/future system so cannot, within this definition, alter his past perfect considerations. This of course also flies in the face of his omnipotence (total power) which seems to contradict the substance of his total/absolute planning. Clearly the words being used do not make sense, at least at the secular level.

God is "locked" into the present system, having chosen the optimal of possibilities in this universe for executing His plan. I guess I'm trying to understand from God's perspective where He has lost His free will or power. The universe sure seems to maintain its physical Newtonian laws, for example. It's not utterly broken.

Quote:The Great Test Fallacy. If we ignore the pre destination fallacy of Calvin( it all happened in Heaven and God is playing silly games) then we are left with a fair test of human beings existing (arguably) foetus to senility, some nine or ten decades at the maximum, all to be fairly tested for squillions of years of afterlife and all that this scenario magically entails. Clearly the qualifying period is way out of synch with the envisaged future.Even if ongoing tests were part of the plan any ultimate purpose along with the serious[/font] trapping along the way are not considered

This is the half-empty glass I see not only with freethinkers but some Christians. I probably do it too much rather than not enough on this forum, but some of you read dozens of appeals from me monthly to your heart, will and reason for Christ. You won't be in Heaven or Hell because of some spin of a roulette wheel but rather, each of you has friends, family and/or acquaintances witnessing to you, people on the radio and TV when you flip dials witnessing to you, and the witness of creation and the natural order itself. These "80 or 90 years" of course seem brief in certain perspectives but also represent thousands of possibilities for repentance and a relationship with God.

Quote:I have indicated but five simple fallacies. Within Judaism and Islam they are also grossly prevelant and rest on the initial premise that a stupendous super perfect God exists Universally, yet gives no sound evidence for this, or even mild suggestion, given life as history has presented itself to us. These religions are bizarre, irrational, disturbing, degrading to our intellect, irresponsible,monetarily grasping,simplistic, and potentially very dangerous.

I agree about the danger when taken too far per your terms as you've defined them. You've changed what Jews, Muslims and Christians know as a good creation to a perfect creation and etc. and set up some straw men (unintentional straw men) IMO.

Let's go back to first principles. Instead of this omniscient, omnipotent being let's start with superior in power, intellect and goodness. How do we respond to a benevelont and wise, powerful leader. We admire Lincoln, Ghandi and Dr. King. Any admiration for their Father?

Quote:Any potentially higher cosmic concepts are not served well by such buffoonery

Agreed if we can correct or amend the straw men of your argument. Thanks.

My levels of irritation are pretty high.

God is evil by creating hell, satan, humans, suffering, etc. He is also a hypocrite by giving humans commandments he does not himself follow.

His "love" is conditional by the very fact that you have to believe in jesus to avoid hell.

Finally if god has emotions and make decisions his mind has to be able to change states which destroys the idea that god is unchanging.

Your waiver idea is one that is retarded. Humans make mistakes, and want to test their air plane designed with out being sued out of business.

If god is locked into the current system then he is lacking in his ability to change that system.

Quote:Let's go back to first principles. Instead of this omniscient, omnipotent being let's start with superior in power, intellect and goodness. How do we respond to a benevelont and wise, powerful leader. We admire Lincoln, Ghandi and Dr. King. Any admiration for their Father?

This is retarded. If you met an alien that was loving in nature, it would be a god according to your definition.

In fact now that I reflect on your definition any body who is smarter, more powerful, and more loving than you become god by definition.

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