Great Christian Fallacies.
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16-06-2013, 11:13 PM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2013 11:30 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(14-06-2013 05:35 PM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  
(14-06-2013 05:05 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Yes G.M!
Just re reading O.P. and started thinking an ethically higher cosmic power could well exist and all scripture contain history, paradox, seeming stupidity, violence, craziness, along with lots of annoying pseudo pride and dogma, could still hold the seeds of an unravelling learning curve directed towards a potential higher consciousness.Angel

Higher consciousness? What's that? Is it suppose to be something like a so-called soul? So far the only consciousness around is our's and it doesn' t seem to be all that different from individual to individual. All else is just wishful thinking. Dodgy

Are you talking about that "enlightenment" nonsense? That's easy. The meaning of life can be found in any good dictionary. [Note: Sarcasm]

Nothing odd about a potential cosmic higher consciousness that exists beyond the limited realm of scientific investigation.In our secular world evil and good are not all that difficult to evaluate, particularly their extremes, and we can mindfully extrapolate beyond that grounded knowledge.
WE do not need scriptural religious dogmas to do so either.
Conversely, the whole Big Bang theory along with evolution cannot prove an intuitive awe inspired contemplation relative to transcendental possibilities as void and meaningless.
Your comments relating to 'wishful thinking' and 'enlightenment nonsense' are trite and suggest you have just got on the atheist bandwagon for the ride, and not to look at deep issues in any way seriously.
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17-06-2013, 05:42 AM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2013 12:40 PM by Stephen Charchuk.)
Re: RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(16-06-2013 11:13 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Nothing odd about a potential cosmic higher consciousness that exists beyond the limited realm of scientific investigation.In our secular world evil and good are not all that difficult to evaluate, particularly their extremes, and we can mindfully extrapolate beyond that grounded knowledge.
WE do not need scriptural religious dogmas to do so either.
Conversely, the whole Big Bang theory along with evolution cannot prove an intuitive awe inspired contemplation relative to transcendental possibilities as void and meaningless.
Your comments relating to 'wishful thinking' and 'enlightenment nonsense' are trite and suggest you have just got on the atheist bandwagon for the ride, and not to look at deep issues in any way seriously.

Just what I thought, new age religious nonsense. Got any crystals to "meditate" with? Not all religions have a god., but they all still are nonsense. The only thing deep that you're looking into is not issues. Rolleyes You are irrelevant.

All that exist is part of the natural world and thus part of science and can be proven or disproven. Like religion what you say is not falsifible. It seems that it is not only Christians who have religious fallacies.

BTW, oh great Salome. I'n not an atheist. I'm an agnostic. Your "collective" consciousness didn't see that.....

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17-06-2013, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2013 07:50 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(17-06-2013 05:42 AM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  Just what I thought, new age religious nonsense.

You wanna see some real New Age shit. Study Quantum Mechanics and the Anthropic Principle. "cogito ergo mundus talis est."

The act of observation is the act of creation/realization/manifestation?!? ... What you talkin' 'bout Willis. Blink But that shit ain't coming from Deepak Chopra, that shit's coming from the fucking physicists. Quantum Mechanics is the New Age shit. The effect and impact of Consciousness itself is the New Age shit. No fucking crystals required, just math and physics. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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17-06-2013, 10:18 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(17-06-2013 06:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 05:42 AM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  Just what I thought, new age religious nonsense.

You wanna see some real New Age shit. Study Quantum Mechanics and the Anthropic Principle. "cogito ergo mundus talis est."

The act of observation is the act of creation/realization/manifestation?!? ... What you talkin' 'bout Willis. Blink But that shit ain't coming from Deepak Chopra, that shit's coming from the fucking physicists. Quantum Mechanics is the New Age shit. The effect and impact of Consciousness itself is the New Age shit. No fucking crystals required, just math and physics. Tongue

A few wacky physicists misinterpreting QM doesn't make their woo smell any different than New Age woo.

The idea that consciousness creates reality is an incoherent notion, self-contradictory.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-06-2013, 06:08 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2013 11:53 AM by Stephen Charchuk.)
Re: RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(17-06-2013 06:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You wanna see some real New Age shit. Study Quantum Mechanics and the Anthropic Principle. "cogito ergo mundus talis est."

The act of observation is the act of creation/realization/manifestation?!? ... What you talkin' 'bout Willis. Blink But that shit ain't coming from Deepak Chopra, that shit's coming from the fucking physicists. Quantum Mechanics is the New Age shit. The effect and impact of Consciousness itself is the New Age shit. No fucking crystals required, just math and physics. Tongue

There's the difference, you can observe it, AND it is still part of the natural world. Where can you actually obsever or test a "collective" consciousness? Certainly not on an MRI. What you're doing is like comparing chemistry to it's distant ancestor Alchemy and trying to make gold. QM is falsifible, a CC isn't. Plus CC is still only a Null hypothesis.

BTW, I know how to make gold.You only need one thing. A star, either igniting or novaing. That is how gold is naturally made. I think that they can make it in a lab now but the process costs several times what the gold is worth. You'll go broke making it. Tongue

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18-06-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:He believed, he identified himself as a christian, he went to church, ect.

He devoteness even goes back before he was well known - often painting religious icons to pass his time. Get off your high horse, this is the real world.

One reason I'm at this forum is to clear common misconceptions about what a true Christian is. Comparing Hitler, who was identified as likely a scatophiliac whose lovers typically killed themselves, and who took intense pleasure in watching films over and again of his enemies garroted with piano wire, with a born again lover of Jesus is the height of inanity.

Here are some quotes:

"There is a Nordic and National-Socialist Science which is opposed to Judaeo- Christian Liberal Science"

"Anyone who interprets National Socialism merely as a political movement knows almost nothing about it. It is more than religion; it is the determination to create a new man."

"I will tell you a secret...I am founding an Order. It is from there that the second stage will emerge- the stage of the Man-God, when Man will be the measure and center of the world. The Man-God, that splendid Being, will be an object of worship...But there are other stages about which I am not permitted to speak..."
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18-06-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(17-06-2013 10:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 06:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You wanna see some real New Age shit. Study Quantum Mechanics and the Anthropic Principle. "cogito ergo mundus talis est."

The act of observation is the act of creation/realization/manifestation?!? ... What you talkin' 'bout Willis. Blink But that shit ain't coming from Deepak Chopra, that shit's coming from the fucking physicists. Quantum Mechanics is the New Age shit. The effect and impact of Consciousness itself is the New Age shit. No fucking crystals required, just math and physics. Tongue

A few wacky physicists misinterpreting QM doesn't make their woo smell any different than New Age woo.

The idea that consciousness creates reality is an incoherent notion, self-contradictory.

Don't think I'd have the balls to characterize Wheeler and Bohr as "wacky".

(18-06-2013 06:08 AM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  QM is falsifible, a CC isn't.

Fair enough. Let's leave the "collective" bit out for a moment. Is consciousness falsifiable?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-06-2013, 05:21 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2013 07:45 AM by Stephen Charchuk.)
Re: RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(18-06-2013 02:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  One reason I'm at this forum is to clear common misconceptions about what a true Christian is. Comparing Hitler, who was identified as likely a scatophiliac whose lovers typically killed themselves, and who took intense pleasure in watching films over and again of his enemies garroted with piano wire, with a born again lover of Jesus is the height of inanity.


You are forgetting one very important fact. Many of us were once Christians and in many cases from very devout families as well so we know what a Christian is be they meaningless labels like true™ or so-called "born again" nonsense. Near the end Hitler had went insane because of syphillis, this in no way changes anything. You can forgive and accept a serial killer in prison if they accept Christ why not Hitler? Are you a hypocrite?

Also, saying that you're a "born again" Christian is nonsense because Jesus wasn't suppositely speaking to other Christians, he was speaking to NON-Christians. Just being a Christian means that you already accepted Jesus. You can't accept him again while you're a Christian. You saying that you're "born again" means that you are placing yourself above those who don't make this assertion. That's being arrogant and selfish. You are committing a great sin in your arrogance saying that Jesus doesn't love other Christians who don't have the same interpretation as you do.

Quote:Here are some quotes:

"There is a Nordic and National-Socialist Science which is opposed to Judaeo- Christian Liberal Science"

"Anyone who interprets National Socialism merely as a political movement knows almost nothing about it. It is more than religion; it is the determination to create a new man."

"I will tell you a secret...I am founding an Order. It is from there that the second stage will emerge- the stage of the Man-God, when Man will be the measure and center of the world. The Man-God, that splendid Being, will be an object of worship...But there are other stages about which I am not permitted to speak..."

It is true that there were some in the upper ranks who wanted to create their own religion and felt that to make it look like it was Hitler's idea would help them gain acceptence. You are reading propaganda. Please list sources.

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18-06-2013, 05:44 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2013 06:14 PM by Stephen Charchuk.)
Re: RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(18-06-2013 04:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Fair enough. Let's leave the "collective" bit out for a moment. Is consciousness falsifiable?

Depends on what YOU mean by consciousness. Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. It has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefullness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind...... (From Wikipedia)

As for falsifiblity in recent times studies have been conducted simplely by asking the subject about their experiences. In fact attitudes have changed about it in recent times as well and not looked on with skepticism anymore. (Also from Wikipedia) Look it up.

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18-06-2013, 07:35 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2013 08:26 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(18-06-2013 05:44 PM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  
(18-06-2013 04:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Fair enough. Let's leave the "collective" bit out for a moment. Is consciousness falsifiable?

Depends on what YOU mean by consciousness. Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware.

Yeah, that.

(18-06-2013 05:44 PM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  As for falsifiblity in recent times studies have been conducted simplely [sic] by asking the subject about their experiences.

So consciousness is falsifiable by means of a conscious entity inquiring about the experiences of other presumably conscious entities. If Chas is looking for an incoherent, self-contradictory notion, he need look no further.

(18-06-2013 05:44 PM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  In fact attitudes have changed about it in recent times as well and not looked on with skepticism anymore. (Also from Wikipedia) Look it up.

Don't need to. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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