Great Christian Fallacies.
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19-06-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2013 08:29 AM by Stephen Charchuk.)
Re: RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(18-06-2013 07:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So consciousness is falsifiable by means of a conscious entity inquiring about the experiences of other presumably conscious entities. If Chas is looking for an incoherent, self-contradictory notion, he need look no further.


So, your answer to evidence is the Genetic Fallacy? Typical theist...... What you're basically saying, for example, is that an Opthamologist can't examine your eyes because he has to use his own. Is that the best you can do? It's very lame.

You're also doing this; "Look there's real science in my holy book......"

Quote:Don't need to. Tongue

Now whom have we heard this from before? Rolleyes You are irrelevant. Bye.

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21-06-2013, 02:51 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  God's Perfect Goodness WE must ask if it is reasonable to believe that any potential cosmic state entails perfection. Perfect, in relationship to what universal unchanging absolute? Also, if such state, or state approaching such existed are we, or some of us party to it? A "perfect state of being would negate any change, creativity, action, challenge or betterment.........after all how do we improve on such? The whole concept sounds like stagnation, or the playing of endless cosmic computer games for some dubious final answer......

Also, a perfect being would not need or want to create anything. Therefore, the existence of the universe itself disproves such a creator.

(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The Free Will Fallacy. A God who created all of the aspects of our existence could only give us freedom within a predetermined state of being. As this state of being can be utilized to cause misery to man and beast in the extreme, it follows that the orchestrator of such(God) must be held to account and not his creations for testing the waters. If a brilliant designer designs a less than brilliant aeroplane with a built in fault to test the efficiency of his crew and the plane crashes, surely the designer is primarily at fault.In never challenging God the believer happily fobs off the bona fides of his nature.

I couldn't agree more. Birds and whales have more free will than us in certain arenas. Before the advent of modern technology, we could look "forward" to deaths in our 40s and 50s, on average.

(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The Great Fall Fallacy How is the nature of the perfection from which a fall occurred assessed.This really comes across as an oxymoron! Perfection, as defined, is the ultimate, something to be clinged to, rather than escape from.It is argued that the escapees were evil and ungrateful, not appreciating their lot so absconded from an ideal state.Quite simply the ideal state is designed to give fatuous reasoning as to mankind's predicament and his means of getting back on track.

One attempted evasion I've heard entails how god could not create perfection, because only god can be perfect (and therefore, nothing else could possibly be perfect). This, of course, implies that heaven will go pear-shaped in short order.

(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The Omniscience Fallacy. An eternal all knowing God is posited as knowing ALL, past, future, and present. This is seen as a prerequisite for that position, any less creating uncertainty and placing us all on shaky grounds. Unfortunately. by being all knowing God is locked in to his ordained past/present/future system so cannot, within this definition, alter his past perfect considerations. This of course also flies in the face of his omnipotence (total power) which seems to contradict the substance of his total/absolute planning. Clearly the words being used do not make sense, at least at the secular level.

It also fails to explain why a tri-omni god did not simply forgo a creation he knew was going to end up with over 90% of sentient beings (or humans at least) being tortured forever. If I was god, I'd begin and end creation with heaven.

(12-05-2013 06:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The Great Test Fallacy. If we ignore the pre destination fallacy of Calvin( it all happened in Heaven and God is playing silly games) then we are left with a fair test of human beings existing (arguably) foetus to senility, some nine or ten decades at the maximum, all to be fairly tested for squillions of years of afterlife and all that this scenario magically entails. Clearly the qualifying period is way out of synch with the envisaged future.Even if ongoing tests were part of the plan any ultimate purpose along with the serious[/font] trapping along the way are not considered

It's even more unjust when you look at how disparate human lifespans are, both in the modern era and throughout history.
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21-06-2013, 05:34 AM
Re: RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-06-2013 02:51 AM)AyameTan Wrote:  [It's even more unjust when you look at how disparate human lifespans are, both in the modern era and throughout history.

No one said that life was suppose to be fair and anyone who believes that it is is a fool. Rolleyes

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21-06-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:You are forgetting one very important fact. Many of us were once Christians and in many cases from very devout families as well so we know what a Christian is be they meaningless labels like true or so-called "born again" nonsense.

Labels define terms. In a rigorous, scientific look at anything, we need to define terms. Labels are not meaningless in this case, unless you have had experience with born again family or friends who didn't live up to the label.

Quote:Near the end Hitler had went insane because of syphillis, this in no way changes anything.

Huh? Near what end? 1931, when he wrote and spoke about killing every Jew in Europe? Hitler didn't love His neighbor, the second highest calling after loving God for a born again Christian. Hitler wasn't a real Christian (follower of Christ).

Quote:You can forgive and accept a serial killer in prison if they accept Christ why not Hitler? Are you a hypocrite?

Acceptance of conversion for others (not the converted himself) requires evidence. Are you saying Hitler had evidence of a converted life? Don't you know what that evidence is? Aren't people on this thread always "complaining" that drug dealers stop dealing and murderers desire to not murder after conversion? How did Hitler demonstrate he had a fresh relationship with Jesus?

Quote:Also, saying that you're a "born again" Christian is nonsense because Jesus wasn't suppositely speaking to other Christians, he was speaking to NON-Christians. Just being a Christian means that you already accepted Jesus. You can't accept him again while you're a Christian. You saying that you're "born again" means that you are placing yourself above those who don't make this assertion. That's being arrogant and selfish. You are committing a great sin in your arrogance saying that Jesus doesn't love other Christians who don't have the same interpretation as you do.

No, you're assuming I was a Christian before I was born again. How do you know I wasn't a Muslim, Jew or Hindu before being born again?
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21-06-2013, 04:02 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2013 05:50 PM by Stephen Charchuk.)
Re: RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-06-2013 01:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Labels define terms. In a rigorous, scientific look at anything, we need to define terms. Labels are not meaningless in this case, unless you have had experience with born again family or friends who didn't live up to the label.

They are meaningless when they are redundant. A Christian is a Christian is a Christian. If you all say that you worship the same gods than you are one. Adding a prefix to Christian won't change that.

[quote}]Huh? Near what end? 1931, when he wrote and spoke about killing every Jew in Europe? Hitler didn't love His neighbor, the second highest calling after loving God for a born again Christian. Hitler wasn't a real Christian (follower of Christ).[/quote]

He didn't invent the hatred of the Jew in Germany. It was a very common thing there and Germany is a very Christian culture. BTW, Hitler was Austrian.

Quote:Acceptance of conversion for others (not the converted himself) requires evidence. Are you saying Hitler had evidence of a converted life? Don't you know what that evidence is? Aren't people on this thread always "complaining" that drug dealers stop dealing and murderers desire to not murder after conversion? How did Hitler demonstrate he had a fresh relationship with Jesus?

He didn't have to convert he was already a devout Christian. He showed it by being "humane" with the murderers of Jesus and sparing the pope's life. You're being redundant again. You're also being arrogant as well in your belief that you are better than all other Christians who don't follow your interpretation. Don't worry you're not the first. There are currently 3000 different sects, and denominations, out of a total of around 30,000 from throughout Christianity's very bloody history who believed that they were the only real ones and that all others were false. They fought many meaningless wars over such nonsense.

Quote:No, you're assuming I was a Christian before I was born again. How do you know I wasn't a Muslim, Jew or Hindu before being born again?

So, you believe that this somehow makes you a better Christian than the billions born into it and followed it all of their lives? Which one, or more, of the deadly sins are you committing with such a belief? What you were before is irrelevant. It's what you say you are now that counts. You can only be born once. It's like that nonsense of geting one's vaginity back. That boat has sailed.

BTW, I wasn't actually "born", I was delivered by C section because they didn't want to take any chances because of the Thalidomide. Does this make me Christ? Angel

Whenever I speak with those like you I remind myself that you are religiouly insane. That you don't have a firm grasp on reality. In other words you lost even before you uttered your first word. You, and those like you, are irrelevant and only worth your entertainmnet value, however tiny that is. And then there are some of you whose enterainmnet value has dropped so low that they no longer exist, not even as an object of pity.Those who go from drugs, or alcohol, to religion are just trading one addiction for another. One that has killed more than the other two combined.

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21-06-2013, 05:23 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-06-2013 04:02 PM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  
(21-06-2013 01:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Labels define terms. In a rigorous, scientific look at anything, we need to define terms. Labels are not meaningless in this case, unless you have had experience with born again family or friends who didn't live up to the label.

They are meaningless when they are redundant. A Christian is a Christian is a Christian. If you all say that you worship the same gods than you are one. Adding a prefix to Christian won't change that.

[quote}]Huh? Near what end? 1931, when he wrote and spoke about killing every Jew in Europe? Hitler didn't love His neighbor, the second highest calling after loving God for a born again Christian. Hitler wasn't a real Christian (follower of Christ).

He didn't invent the hatred of the Jew in Germany. It was a very common thing there and Germany is a very Christian culture. BTW, Hitler was Austrian.

Quote:Acceptance of conversion for others (not the converted himself) requires evidence. Are you saying Hitler had evidence of a converted life? Don't you know what that evidence is? Aren't people on this thread always "complaining" that drug dealers stop dealing and murderers desire to not murder after conversion? How did Hitler demonstrate he had a fresh relationship with Jesus?

He didn't have to convert he was already a devout Christian. He showed it by being "humane" with the murderers of Jesus and sparing the pope's life. You're being redundant again. You're also being arrogant as well in your belief that you are better than all other Christians who don't follow your interpretation. Don't worry you're not the first. There are currently 3000 different sects, and denominations, out of a total of around 30,000 from throughout Christianity's very bloody history who believed that they were the only real ones and that all others were false. They fought many meaningless wars over such nonsense.

Quote:No, you're assuming I was a Christian before I was born again. How do you know I wasn't a Muslim, Jew or Hindu before being born again?

So, you believe that this somehow makes you a better Christian than the billions born into it and followed it all of their lives? Which one, or more, of the deadly sins are you committing with such a belief? What you were before is irrelevant. It's what you say you are now that counts. You can only be born once. It's like that nonsense of geting one's vaginity back. That boat has sailed.

BTW, I wasn't actually "born", I was delivered by C section because they didn't want to take any chances because of the Thalidomide. Does this make me Christ? Angel
[/quote]


If you keep making everyone redundant, passe', spent or whatever you may loose a good many on whom to inflict your acute but insidious and irritating wit!
In knowing all,debate tends to be superfluous, does it not?Dodgy
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21-06-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(18-06-2013 02:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:He believed, he identified himself as a christian, he went to church, ect.

He devoteness even goes back before he was well known - often painting religious icons to pass his time. Get off your high horse, this is the real world.

One reason I'm at this forum is to clear common misconceptions about what a true Christian is. Comparing Hitler, who was identified as likely a scatophiliac whose lovers typically killed themselves, and who took intense pleasure in watching films over and again of his enemies garroted with piano wire, with a born again lover of Jesus is the height of inanity.

Here are some quotes:

"There is a Nordic and National-Socialist Science which is opposed to Judaeo- Christian Liberal Science"

"Anyone who interprets National Socialism merely as a political movement knows almost nothing about it. It is more than religion; it is the determination to create a new man."

"I will tell you a secret...I am founding an Order. It is from there that the second stage will emerge- the stage of the Man-God, when Man will be the measure and center of the world. The Man-God, that splendid Being, will be an object of worship...But there are other stages about which I am not permitted to speak..."

Uh oh! Not another one! A reincarnation of Nietzshe perhaps?
Egor....please come back and save us from this slime....Unsure
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21-06-2013, 06:31 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-06-2013 05:34 AM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  
(21-06-2013 02:51 AM)AyameTan Wrote:  [It's even more unjust when you look at how disparate human lifespans are, both in the modern era and throughout history.

No one said that life was suppose to be fair and anyone who believes that it is is a fool. Rolleyes

But a perfectly just god would give everyone the same opportunities to obtain salvation, no?
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21-06-2013, 06:54 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-06-2013 06:31 PM)AyameTan Wrote:  
(21-06-2013 05:34 AM)Stephen Charchuk Wrote:  No one said that life was suppose to be fair and anyone who believes that it is is a fool. Rolleyes

But a perfectly just god would give everyone the same opportunities to obtain salvation, no?

Excactly!
That is why the Calvinistic unexplained teaching of God choosing a remnant group in advance is so peculiar.
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22-06-2013, 05:15 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-06-2013 06:54 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(21-06-2013 06:31 PM)AyameTan Wrote:  But a perfectly just god would give everyone the same opportunities to obtain salvation, no?

Excactly!
That is why the Calvinistic unexplained teaching of God choosing a remnant group in advance is so peculiar.

Calvinism was devised by a sociopath in an attempt to evade personal responsibility in the material world for one's own misdeeds.
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