Great Christian Fallacies.
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17-05-2013, 01:44 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(17-05-2013 01:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Your glass is quite half-full. It usually is if you're a captivated freethinker.

A cruel God would have a hardier creation. The average stay in Auschwitz was three months before death. Lacking B vitamins and a basic diet, camp prisoners had trouble remembering even the names of lost ones, another mercy.

No, if I was the cruel God you propose, I'd make the bodies/soul cages tougher, so the Nazis could torture people psychically and physically for five-seven years or more instead of three months.

You don't understand because you understand and believe what you want to understand.

You don't understand.

You're hilarious! I didn't think there was a silver lining to the holocaust, but apparently there is one: "it could have been worse." Clap, clap, clap.

I wonder, PJ, if there are any instances that satisfy your 'crueler' criteria. Is there a recent example of humans being tortured, physically, sexually, and mentally, for, oh let's say a ten year period. Any at all? Anything in the recent news, perhaps? Three women in a basement?

But of course, it could have been worse for them, so it really doesn't count in your eyes, does it? You suffer from Stockholm syndrome. I'm sure of it now.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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17-05-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(17-05-2013 01:44 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(17-05-2013 01:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Your glass is quite half-full. It usually is if you're a captivated freethinker.

A cruel God would have a hardier creation. The average stay in Auschwitz was three months before death. Lacking B vitamins and a basic diet, camp prisoners had trouble remembering even the names of lost ones, another mercy.

No, if I was the cruel God you propose, I'd make the bodies/soul cages tougher, so the Nazis could torture people psychically and physically for five-seven years or more instead of three months.

You don't understand because you understand and believe what you want to understand.

You don't understand.

You're hilarious! I didn't think there was a silver lining to the holocaust, but apparently there is one: "it could have been worse." Clap, clap, clap.

I wonder, PJ, if there are any instances that satisfy your 'crueler' criteria. Is there a recent example of humans being tortured, physically, sexually, and mentally, for, oh let's say a ten year period. Any at all? Anything in the recent news, perhaps? Three women in a basement?

But of course, it could have been worse for them, so it really doesn't count in your eyes, does it? You suffer from Stockholm syndrome. I'm sure of it now.

Yes, sadly the blinded Christian apologists will come up with anything to get their self defined god version up and running.Angel
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20-05-2013, 12:35 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:You're hilarious! I didn't think there was a silver lining to the holocaust, but apparently there is one: "it could have been worse." Clap, clap, clap.

I wonder, PJ, if there are any instances that satisfy your 'crueler' criteria. Is there a recent example of humans being tortured, physically, sexually, and mentally, for, oh let's say a ten year period. Any at all? Anything in the recent news, perhaps? Three women in a basement?

But of course, it could have been worse for them, so it really doesn't count in your eyes, does it? You suffer from Stockholm syndrome. I'm sure of it now.

Point taken.

Now, let's have the kidnapper use the omnipotence of God in his defense at his trial. Why won't any jury or judge accept such a defense, do you think?
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20-05-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(20-05-2013 12:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Point taken.

Now, let's have the kidnapper use the omnipotence of God in his defense at his trial. Why won't any jury or judge accept such a defense, do you think?

They might. It's called an insanity plea. Why do you think the defense goes for an insanity plea when their client tries to attribute their actions to god?

Regardless, God's inaction is a crime and warrants a separate trial. I believe the term for god's crime is "reckless indifference" (any lawyers here?). It's when you make no attempt to stop a criminal act, even when there is no risk of harm to yourself. For example, if you watch one child drown another child and do nothing to stop it, you've committed a crime. It's rare, but I'd say a decade of human captivity qualifies, among other events...

Why do you think we haven't put god on trial for indifference?

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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21-05-2013, 12:50 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:Why do you think we haven't put god on trial for indifference?
Because of things like E.I. Smith saying God couldn't sink his RMS Titanic and then it "just so" sinks. Because Jeremiah gave a prophecy that the sun and moon would have their light extinguished before the Jewish race would disappear, and Hitler and 100 other Hamans couldn't exterminate Israel. Because hundreds of millions of people who are not Atheists know God responds to prayer.

How out of control and determined-in-behavioral-response do you think humans are? Don't you know God separated languages at Babel for if He didn't there would be "nothing humans could not do banded together? Don't you appreciate Apollo 11, the Allies in WWII, Lincoln, Washington, Dr. King and Gandhi?

Man is VERY powerful with much potential. Indeed, every man and woman is. Let's not blame God for being omnipotent and also for granting us free will.
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21-05-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-05-2013 12:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Because hundreds of millions of people who are not Atheists know God responds to prayer.

You use mental gymnastics to create a self illusion of god answering your prayer. You ignore the horrible, daily tragedies experienced by believers and write them off as "it could have been worse," or "god works in mysterious ways." I have read a post where you've actually tried to rationalize how god could allow the holocaust to happen by stating that he was merciful in the amount of suffering he allowed the victims to endure. Dozens of children are dead from a tornado and you will find a way to rationalize it, to make it a holy and necessary act. You've already found your silver lining for that particular 'act of god,' haven't you? You had to, lest your perception of god be threatened by real world events.

The most damning evidence against you is the same claims being made by believers of other gods. There is nothing you can do to disprove their claims without disproving your own. They use the same reasoning as you; to dismiss their claims is to dismiss your own.

(21-05-2013 12:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Don't you know God separated languages at Babel for if He didn't there would be "nothing humans could not do banded together?

What you meant to type was the bible says that, and you believe it.

(21-05-2013 12:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Don't you appreciate Apollo 11, the Allies in WWII, Lincoln, Washington, Dr. King and Gandhi?

Are you trying to give your god credit for these? Will you also give your god credit for SIDs, cancer in children, victims of malaria, mental illness, starvation, blindness, polio, etc?

(21-05-2013 12:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Man is VERY powerful with much potential. Indeed, every man and woman is. Let's not blame God for being omnipotent and also for granting us free will.

Wrong. People are born with diminished mental and physical capacity. People don't live to see the age of 10. People are victims of disease and disaster.

Let's not create an all-powerful, loving god and then let him off the hook for not being all-powerful and loving. Let's not make excuses for our imaginary friend's faults.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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21-05-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:Are you trying to give your god credit for these? Will you also give your god credit for SIDs, cancer in children, victims of malaria, mental illness, starvation, blindness, polio, etc?

I can't debate with you since you're not actually listening. Your responses stem from an agenda that is separate from the issues at hand. I'm trying to give Dr. King and Gandhi credit, NOT God. Man has free will, tremendous capability and potential. Man has also cured a lot of blindness, malaria, polio, etc.

God is all-powerful but shares power, from the crucifixion of Christ to Apollo 11 to... As a parent, I can see the wisdom in allowing my children free will rather than constantly and always interfering/dictating/intervening.

If you can't understand this aspect of parenting, what is there to say? Perhaps that complaining about God you sound like a child who says they took the cookies from the cookie jar because the parent didn't care to place the jar further out of reach. Right?
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21-05-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-05-2013 02:24 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Your responses stem from an agenda that is separate from the issues at hand.

Uh huh. Dodgy


Anybody want to hand Pj a mirror?

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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21-05-2013, 02:47 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-05-2013 02:24 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I can't debate with you since you're not actually listening. Your responses stem from an agenda that is separate from the issues at hand. I'm trying to give Dr. King and Gandhi credit, NOT God. Man has free will, tremendous capability and potential. Man has also cured a lot of blindness, malaria, polio, etc.
So what does God do that's so fancy if he *doesn't* cure malaria and so forth. Anyway JC did miracle cures back when he was a lowly peasant before he got nailed.

Speaking of JC, isn't it a bit undignified for some creator type who can make a sun, galaxies etc to die nailed to a plank by some monkeys on a flyspeck ball of shit in the middle of nowhere ? Ignominious end for the creator. And he planned it ?
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21-05-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(21-05-2013 02:24 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I can't debate with you since you're not actually listening. Your responses stem from an agenda that is separate from the issues at hand. I'm trying to give Dr. King and Gandhi credit, NOT God. Man has free will, tremendous capability and potential. Man has also cured a lot of blindness, malaria, polio, etc.

I give them credit as well. Moving on...

It's not a debate; I have no illusion of winning an argument or changing your mind. I truly believe you are not capable of changing your beliefs, no matter what evidence you are provided with to the contrary. What I'm arguing is your one-way street of thinking.

(21-05-2013 02:24 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If you can't understand this aspect of parenting, what is there to say? Perhaps that complaining about God you sound like a child who says they took the cookies from the cookie jar because the parent didn't care to place the jar further out of reach. Right?

I absolutely understand that aspect of parenting. You do not need to give the 'free will' argument to me. Does a good parent let their child play in the freeway? Does a good parent let someone else take their child? Are you telling me an all-powerful god answers prayers, but then ignores three women held captive in a basement for ten years because of 'free will'? Maybe you are. If so, I understand your thinking and we have nothing further to discuss.

I'm complaining about you claiming the existence of a loving god when children are dying of cancer and genetic illnesses. The child has free will to die? Is cancer a 'jar of cookies'?

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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