Great Christian Fallacies.
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23-05-2013, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2013 08:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(22-05-2013 02:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Some children die from disease at an early age, some do not. Free will is removed; there is no choice for the child. Not a level playing field.

Huh? What does the age at which one dies have to do with making free will choices in the context of life circumstances? I never said humans were omnipotent over disease or tornadoes or anything:

*A 10-year-old who dies had free will for 10 years, albeit not having true sentience for all those years as an older child does

*An 80-year-old had free will for 80 years

Quote:Three women are kept captive and abused by a man for ten years. The women's free will was an illusion; they were overpowered by a stronger opponent. You implied(?) god did not help them because he would have been imposing on the attacker's free will. Not a level playing field.

*We always have free will, why is that freethinkers do not study Maslow and self-actualization? They chose to attempt escape from their free will otherwise they'd still be missing! Free will does not mean freedom of action in all times in all circumstances and that people are omnipotent, it means "freedom of choice between given choices".

Quote:Some people are born with great intelligence, others are born with the mental capacity of a small child. Free will is wasted, as they cannot even perform simple tasks without help. Not a level playing field.

Forget mental capacity of adults, mere babies have free will. I remember sleepless nights with my kids. Smile

Quote:I look at the world and see no loving, caring god. There is too much contradiction between the god you describe and the world we live in.

Christopher Hitchens didn't see one either. Yet he said he received thousands of letters from Christians while he was terminally ill. All of them showed consideration for his illness and he said NOT ONE of them was condemnatory to him. Yet he persisted in saying in the same interview, "I can't see the love of Christ anywhere."

Now YOU are exercising your free will.

Quote:I think it is Buddhists who believe that god(s), if they exist, cannot end suffering on this Earth. Do you believe that as well? Would you say your god cannot, or will not, end suffering on this Earth, allowing some to suffer horribly while others live wonderful lives in order to preserve free will?

He will end suffering. He will also induce it. He has both free will and omnipotence. The suffering will be just, the ending of suffering will be liberating.

Look at it this way. We know that our own sin can cause suffering (drunkenness, addiction to gambling) and the sins of others can cause us suffering (the captors of the women, Nazis). (Sorry, had to invoke Godwin's Law somewhere.) Your statements about God ending suffering is kind of like saying, "Gee, it's tough in prison and prisoners suffer. Sure, they get three square meals, have TV and gym, but all they did was kill a few people..."

Sin = Fallen World = Suffering. We're talking Genesis 1, 2 and 3 here, but it seems to mystify and elude non-Christians. Why is that, do you think?

There is no such thing as "free will" No Christian theologian says a 10 year old has free will "for 10 years". No infant can reason. You are 100 % constrained by your memory and life-experiences. Modern Neuro-science has completely debunked "free will". Too bad Pleasy is so uneducated.

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23-05-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(23-05-2013 02:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Oy, I KNEW I shouldn't have mentioned Satan. I finished by saying the upshot of all this is there is suffering and decay... be certain that Arminians and Calvinists alike blame man, not Satan, not God, for the evil in the world. Isn't that the very sort of (we'll own the responsibility) that Hitchens preached?

Consider your satan comment removed from record, then. Yes, I believe we own our own fates on this world. That's a big part of my atheism. I see no presence of a god, no influence or direction beyond random happenstance.

(23-05-2013 02:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I hear what you're saying. I have a friend who is dying of cancer in hospice now. Another friend's (young) wife died of cancer last week. The Facebook messages were uplifting and life affirming. "Suffering" just doesn't mean to a Christian what it means to a non-Christian. It has purpose, meaning, even beauty. God is fair not "fair" and just not "just".

That is an allowance you grant your god. I will not excuse the disparity in suffering I see. I see no presence of a god, only chance.

(23-05-2013 02:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Read your quote again, "How is free will is useful to someone with diminished mental capacity?" It almost sounds like a justification for euthanasia, doesn't it? People with diminished mental capacity are people.

That's not the direction I was going. You make free will out to be this excellent gift we've all been given. However, giving free will to someone with the mental capacity of a three year old is like giving gloves to someone with no hands. I must accept that some are born with less. I will not accept the idea of a creator allowing it, pretending that free will is a gift we all enjoy in equal capacity.

(23-05-2013 02:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I understand that you would say it is an injustice. On what basis? It can't be suffering, because suffering is found in nature. Animals eat animals and make them suffer. Death is in nature. Cancer is a growth, and mutant growth is a part of evolution, etc. You can feel things about justice, cruelty, suffering and etc. Only you can determine if these are evolved survival mechanisms or soul searching.

On the basis of a creator. If there is no creator, then there is no injustice, only random chance and good and bad fortune. If there is a creator, then that creator is responsible. Especially if that creator claims omnipotence.

(23-05-2013 02:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Is it a pocketed sandwich? I think it's the equivalent of "Life is hard now but you will be in Heaven for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00​0,000,000,000,000 years so have perspective." That's a LOT of sandwiches, isn't it?

That's a claim cooked up by the church. I know you believe in it, but I see the concept of salvation as a gimmick. It's no surprise that something with a finite lifespan would dream of never dying.

(23-05-2013 02:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And, if I may be so bold? This is not to frustrate or anger you in any way, just reflecting here. Isn't success in life almost universally based on denial and struggle first, reward later? I'm thinking of romantic, academic, military, pacifist, educational, etc. achievement. Why should God's universe be different than God's intervention in that respect?

I agree with you. Suffering is necessary. But it is also unbalanced, unfair, and not evenly distributed. That makes sense in a godless world.

The god of the bible tasted failure. It's one of humanity's themes; it shows up everywhere.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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23-05-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(22-05-2013 12:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Again returning to human suffering.
Have you considered the theory of reincarnation as perhaps assisting with the blatant anomalies of testing within a one life period?
This was Christian doctrine till the Council of Nicacea,round 500 C.E.
It was eliminated as it was seen to conflict with the doctrine of Grace

I have considered it. Just last week I was witnessing to an Asian person who spoke of reincarnation and I pointed out the increasing population of the Earth, demonstrating fewer souls becoming enlightened and more souls tied to the karmic wheel here. They said, "You're right." We ended the time with my gift to them of a gospel of John and their pledge to read it.

I do understand how the influence of apocrypha could have allowed reincarnation to filter into Christianity, but am reminded of this verse, "It is appointed unto people once to die, and then to come for judgment." That's clear, isn't it?

Not really clear........death could involve an end to an evolving soul that had been given every opportunity(?)

As for apocryphal stuff, maybe some of that makes more sense....Thomas?

Unity Christian Church teaches reincarnation based on a discussion between Jesus and John the Baptist.
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24-05-2013, 01:22 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:PleaseJesus,
The Biblical God is portrayed as omniscient,knowing past, presnt and future. Is this what you believe?..not a gotcha by the way..

Yes, with one addition to what you wrote:

There are two wills, God's will or desire and man's free will. Just as my children and I can have conflict where our wills don't intersect, man and God can come into conflict where one's will or desire is beyond the other's.

Thanks.
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24-05-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:There is no such thing as "free will" No Christian theologian says a 10 year old has free will "for 10 years. No infant can reason. You are 100 % constrained by your memory and life-experiences. Modern Neuro science has completely debunked "free will". Too bad Pleasy is so uneducated.

That's not what I wrote. I wrote that the young child does not get 10 years due to lack of sentience. However, it is a known fact that infant children sometimes cry when hungry or uncomfortable, and sometimes, just for mere attention.

Likewise, all the neurological knowledge we have, and all the statistical knowledge we have, and all the knowledge we have, can not predict all human behavior. Note the experiences, positive and negative of stockbrokers and other gamblers...
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24-05-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:On the basis of a creator. If there is no creator, then there is no injustice, only random chance and good and bad fortune. If there is a creator, then that creator is responsible. Especially if that creator claims omnipotence.

Let's return to the question of children suffering. You thought that God is unfair or hates children if those children suffer.

Are you saying God loves children when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where God can show his love for a child by causing a child to suffer?

It sounds like a lot of what we're discussing boils down to concepts of fairness, which is why I ask. For another example, are you saying it's unfair that a Christian gets to live forever?
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24-05-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(24-05-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:On the basis of a creator. If there is no creator, then there is no injustice, only random chance and good and bad fortune. If there is a creator, then that creator is responsible. Especially if that creator claims omnipotence.

Let's return to the question of children suffering. You thought that God is unfair or hates children if those children suffer.

Are you saying God loves children when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where God can show his love for a child by causing a child to suffer?

It sounds like a lot of what we're discussing boils down to concepts of fairness, which is why I ask. For another example, are you saying it's unfair that a Christian gets to live forever?


What of the devout Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, Zarathustrian, Sikh,Theosophist,Sikh, Jain, Spiritist,Anthropophisist,Occultist et al..........will their beliefs get them eternal life also?


And?..........who out of the Anglicans, Anabaptists, Baptists,Church of Christ,Christian Scientists,Episcopalians, Catholics,Presbyterians, Methodists,Quakers, Seventh Day Adventists, Unity, Unitarian, Uniting et al, in your opinion is most informed re the issue of eternal life?

Is not how we all act towards each other in the here and the now rather more important than a nebulous eternal life when it comes to down to earth moral behaviour? Thank you.
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24-05-2013, 10:33 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(24-05-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Are you saying there is no condition where God can show his love for a child by causing a child to suffer?

Well if no one else does, I will.

There is no reason to make a child suffer and if you do make a child suffer you are a sadist.

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24-05-2013, 11:04 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2013 11:13 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(24-05-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:On the basis of a creator. If there is no creator, then there is no injustice, only random chance and good and bad fortune. If there is a creator, then that creator is responsible. Especially if that creator claims omnipotence.

Let's return to the question of children suffering. You thought that God is unfair or hates children if those children suffer.

Are you saying God loves children when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where God can show his love for a child by causing a child to suffer?

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24-05-2013, 11:33 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2013 12:06 AM by Free Thought.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(24-05-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Let's return to the question of children suffering. You thought that God is unfair or hates children if those children suffer.

Are you saying God loves children when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where God can show his love for a child by causing a child to suffer?

Making a child, or anybody suffer without necessity is inexcusable and it's not love. And I cannot imagine a scenario where you must cause suffering unto a person before you can love them or show it.

In fact, I question if your deity even knows what love is. Because kidnapping a person and ordering on the threat of a fate worse than death that they love you is simply an evil act wreaking of megalomania and severe entitlement complex.


Then again, thinking an all-powerful, sky wizarding, Lichking, zombie-human hybrid who was most likely a disgusting looking, unclean, 4'9" Arabian Jew caters to your needs also wreaks of it.

Edit: Spelling

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